Thread: I...

I'm stunned. You really live in la-la land. You don't go out much, do you? I'm not even going to argue on those points. It's absolutely ridiculous.

It's unnecessary anyways, because while I speak of the world in general, you seem focused on USA, as if what's beyond your borders just doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by medievalelks

You paint a bleak anecdote, but without context on how she arrived in her current situation, it's somewhat pointless.

Take it at face value and don't bother me, or don't believe a word of what I say and don't bother me either. I'm not in the mood, and never will be, to speak of other people's lives beyond what is absolutely necessary in order to further a point. It's the way it is and I realy don't give a rat's arse if you care to believe in it or not.

I already noticed you just don't buy the poverty talk. For you people are poor because they never did anything to get out of the situation. The poor are lazy. I don't know if I should ignore you or slap out of your induced coma. But while I think about it, I'll decide for the former.

Have a nice day.

You paint a bleak anecdote, but without context on how she arrived in her current situation, it's somewhat pointless. Never given a chance? Did she have a chance not to have children she couldn't afford? A chance to do better in school? So that perhaps she could get a scholarship at a university and have a better life? Is there not financial aid that she could take advantage of now to learn a skill or trade?

I would have to agree with Mario F. in the regard that you seem very focused on only the USA and are not recognizing the rest of the world. Take this example of the black woman who Mario F. mentioned his post, and then you responded with the above quote.

You are obviously thinking of the average African-American who does have a chance to go to good schools and make a better life for himself/herself. When I hear Mario F. say "black woman" the first thing that comes to mind for me is not the average African-American which we see here in the USA, but an immigrant directly from Africa who is a refugee and is struggling to survive which I saw every day while I was living in Italy. (Mario F. can confirm whether that is correct in his country as well...I assume African refugees are fairly widespread throughout Europe).

I know several Africans from my time in Italy who have amazing (if that is even the correct word) tales of their escapes from their war-torn countries and journeys to Europe. One man I know literally walked from the Congo to Tunisia in order to get away from the war that was going on in his country, and then when he arrived in Malta (a country that is part of the EU) he was thrown in a refugee prison for a year until it could be confirmed that he was a refugee. When he finally got out, he was able to find work...but did the Maltese like the African refugees? No. So did the African refugees get good work? Absolutely not. A few Maltese lira per day at most.

Although this black woman that Mario F. speaks of might come from a different background or situation, most Africans that I met while living in Italy came from a very similar situation to the one I described above. Very little chance to "do better in school", "get a scholarship", or even "get financial aid".

Originally Posted by Mario F.

I'm stunned. You really live in la-la land. You don't go out much, do you? I'm not even going to argue on those points. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I cited bureau of census statistics, you cite gut feelings and anecdotes. Which of us is in la-la land?

It's unnecessary anyways, because while I speak of the world in general, you seem focused on USA, as if what's beyond your borders just doesn't matter.

As far as I'm concerned about the reach of my government, no - I don't care in that regard. I mean, whose bastille were you planning to storm?

I do contribute to private charities that try to help countries ruined by despots and corrupt governments, but I feel that they probably don't do much to help.

I already noticed you just don't buy the poverty talk. For you people are poor because they never did anything to get out of the situation. The poor are lazy. I don't know if I should ignore you or slap out of your induced coma. But while I think about it, I'll decide for the former.

Have a nice day.

I clarified the poverty talk - at least in the US - with an article citing statistics from the 2002 US Census. You refute it with hand waving, emotional outbursts, and threats of violence.

Have a nice day yourself, but think twice before you decide to "storm our bastille", Madame De Farge.

Originally Posted by DavidP

Although this black woman that Mario F. speaks of might come from a different background or situation, most Africans that I met while living in Italy came from a very similar situation to the one I described above. Very little chance to "do better in school", "get a scholarship", or even "get financial aid".

She's not a refugee, though. But a regular immigrant from Angola that faced lack of work, no social security, no proper health care and hunger in her own country. Europe is a land of opportunity to them because even though they live at the bottom of the social ladder on most cases, they live better here than they did in their own countries. They are however victims of all sorts of prejudice and most arrive at later ages, after a youth spent working instead of going to school in order to survive. They have no formal education and there's very few mechanisms that at least try to ensure the second generation (their sons and daughters) are offered better opportunities. They even suffer from far worst discrimination that starts in school and carries on through their entire lives, turning most of them into rightfully bitter youths who create their own culture usually as much distanced from the host country normal practices as possible. Which only complicates matters.

She's just one of 1 million other similar cases in a country of 10 million. And yet although she earns around 400 euros a month (just around 50 euros above the minimum wage), she's considered above the poverty level... 400 euros a month, 3 young children and a mother. And that, they say, is not poor.

And she is a speck in a world where maybe 1/2 of the world population lives under 2 dollars a day. While some read census that make a poor effort dispelling poverty, the vast majority of the world population (including many citizens on developed countries. And in USA too) are looking for a way out of their poverty, or have submitted to it as they realize that's how their lives will always be. And that's how the Declaration of Human Rights turned out to be.

The fact we now look at this as perfectly normal, acceptable, understandable, and some even go to lengths to try and dispel "the myth of poverty", is the real drama of these people.

Originally Posted by abachler

but then she chose sex over success

You know, he's talking about a (presumably fairly uneducated) immigrant, right?

Originally Posted by psychopath

You know, he's talking about a (presumably fairly uneducated) immigrant, right?

Uneducated doesnt mean stupid. Even people in 3rd world countries are aware that children need food, clothing and shelter; and that those needs must be provided by the parent(s). Unless you are claiming that she comes form some mysically naive part fo the world where they are unaware of the fact that sex causes pregnancy, she was 'aware' of the consequences of her actions, even if she coudlnt fully grasp the magnitude of those consequences. She is still far better off now than she would be in whatever ........hole she left, otherwise why leave. Honestly, stop feeling sorry for these people. Bleeding heart liberals like you and Mario F. woudl have us live in communism because you refuse to make people take responsibility for their bad choices.

Yes. I should tell these people just that. They are responsible for having had a child at the age of 15 due to the fact her country offers absolutely no education on families living in rural areas. Or that they are responsible if their brothers, father or uncle repeatedly rape them. Or if they are kidnapped by rebel forces and used as sexual slaves in some Ivory Coast rebel camp.

But mostly I should blame these people for having kids and seeing their partners abandon them to their luck. And I should blame them for the fact their parents didn't want them to go to school, but instead work in the fields or marry them at the age of 13 for the dowry.

Ignorant cretins like you would have us lived back in the days of slavery from which you wished you had never left. Get under that rock and smell the world outside that street you live on. You are too lazy and too much of a fool to have a discussion with me on these issues before you do just that, newb.

They are responsible for having had a child at the age of 15 due to the fact her country offers absolutely no education on families living in rural areas.

... And who's fault do you think that is? What it no becomes your country's fault that her country didn't have an education system? Where do you think the system you have now came from? Nothing at all is stopping Africa.

I already have a good education, so you're saying it's my right to move country and get stuff for free? I'd say Education isn't something that should be free, not when I pay $12K a year.

In Australia they give them free money, immigrants get less than students (who get $0, and I'd argue are struggling far more -- in fact the poorest suburb in Australia is my uni's postcode [all the boarders]). All they do is cruise around on the bus system, spending money... not working at all. They even get free bloody houses! It goes to show giving them stuff for free, is not the way.

Dated and funny, but oh so true.

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-whyspeculate.html

Originally Posted by medievalelks

So who is responsible for that? Sad stories, but no justification for confiscating the income of others to help her. You want to help, start or give to a charity or church or other such private organization that does such work. There are plenty.

Agreed, if there is anything that I've learned in my life in America is that private charitable organizations handle their donations WAY better than the government handles our tax dollars. They make the dollar go much farther and they help all the right people much better. The government is a big, wasteful machine that will only make you wonder exactly all that money you've had taken away has been going.

Now, I can't say the same for other countries, but a government is a government. They are all big wasters and I'm sure no matter where you're from, you're better off giving it to charity than to the government. Fortunately, the US (and I'm sure most other countries) have a solution for this as they allow you to write off all income that has been donated to charities from your taxes. This is how it should be, now we just need to find a way to convince the upper-middle class and lower-upper class to donate more because the fact is, the big guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do more donating than anyone can really ask of them.

Originally Posted by Bubba

Funny, but oh so true.

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-whyspeculate.html

Crichton is a genius. I'm glad someone else gets joy out of reading his articles and speeches. By the way, did you see that left-wing monstrosity that A&E made out of The Andromeda Strain?