Frozen water found on Mars

This is a discussion on Frozen water found on Mars within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; One cannot claim that they represent the human race with an American, Russian or Chinese flag being planted onto another ...

  1. #46
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    One cannot claim that they represent the human race with an American, Russian or Chinese flag being planted onto another planet. Somehow, someway, all we humans need to see each other as the same earthly species, afforded the same inalienable rights. Perhaps it'd take contact with an alien culture before we all start thinking of ourselves as Earthlings and not by race or nationality.
    So true yet humans flock together in groups be it in the workplace, home, government, nation, etc. It's just human to want to be with other humans who share common ground. I feel that going to Mars would probably happen well before any progress is made towards anyone identifying themselves by the world they live in rather than the country. It's so hard to see the big picture in our mere 12 to 20 miles of horizon that we see everyday. The internet has and still is bringing that picture a little more into view but we are a long way off.

    This board is a clear step in the right direction. We have many different people here from many different countries all helping one another with some type of programming or technology. National differences aside it is clear to me that at the very core level most of us get up each day and go to work for the same reasons. We have similar goals and aspirations and overall we want the best for our families, friends, and fellow man. Maybe we aren't as different as our leaders say we are.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 06-26-2008 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #47
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...34952620080626

    Sorry but I check Slashdot pretty often
    My Website

    "Circular logic is good because it is."

  3. #48
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...34952620080626

    Sorry but I check Slashdot pretty often
    Thats just micronutrients and the macronutrients P and K. It doesnt contain enough N either as NH4- or NO3+. Sorry but I actually know quite a bit about horticulture.
    Last edited by abachler; 06-27-2008 at 08:36 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #49
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    It's just one more strong reason to support the notion of a future Habitat on Mars populated with scientists. If it's not enough the fact it has water, building materials and a atmospheric pressure that is not so oppressive as to make almost impossible the task of building anything on it, we now have a soil, that with enough treatment can allow for the growth of plants, essential for the Habitat sustainability and for food. One less expense and one more reason to believe in a sustained environment for scientists to work on.

    The thought was pretty much established already for a few years. But it's always good to know (assuming all this information is the result of extensive analysis) for a fact.

    Folks, forget the Moon. It's Mars that matters. Sure, the moon can be useful to us. I would like to think the Webb telescope (the successor to Hubble, expected to be launched in 2013) will be the last of its generation. The Moon is a great advantage point for the installation of observation material and communications relay stations. But the real science will be happening on Mars. It has to. We have to leave this scientific marasmus we have installed ourselves onto for the past 40 years.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #50
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    But the real science will be happening on Mars. It has to. We have to leave this scientific marasmus we have installed ourselves onto for the past 40 years.
    Umm, not to split hairs, but what exactly do you think is going to happen on mars that cannot be done on earth at much lower cost? Exploration yes, but real science? Unlikely. I'm not saying we shouldnt go, just that the expectation that new technology will be developed ON mars and not merely as a result of GOING TO mars, is unrealistic. Unless we discover an ancient alien outpost or something.
    Last edited by abachler; 06-27-2008 at 09:22 AM. Reason: typsos
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  6. #51
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Well, glad you asked because I didn't feel that could be interpreted from my text. The thing however is, not even for one moment it crossed my mind that Mars would serve as some kind of technological factory.

    Science is about knowledge first and foremost. When that bit is over, we pass the torch for the man in the blue jumpsuit to build things, if applicable. Otherwise we keep the pursuing of knowledge... simply for the sake of it. That's what we have always been doing, abachler.

    Science on Mars is about formulating, predicting, understanding. Tasks that may or may not be relevant for the development of new technologies, but invariably add for our understanding of the Universe, and out Solar System in particular along with its past history and future directions.

    I share your and others disbelief in colonization or other fantastic objectives. However, it's undeniable that landing, exploring and studying an extraterrestrial planet (in search for past or future life as well as understanding its history, geology, climate, ....) has always been the prime objective. Mars, for its distance and apparent conditions if quickly becoming the prime candidate for our maiden voyage.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #52
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I fully belive that we will eventually colonize mars. I just think it will need a lot of terraforming before permanent habitation will be possible. Its much more of an engineering and financial problem, since we already know how to do it. Its simply going to take a few centuries, which isnt a program most polititicians will sign off on. The expense involved, and the fact that every country will want to settle its people on a terraformed mars, pretty much requires that every nation contribute equally, otherwise its simply not in the best interest of any nation to do it without exclusive control of the result.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  8. #53
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Before we can terraform or move a lot of material to another planet we must find alternate means of propulsion. Fission and anti-matter propulsion would probably suffice for a Mars journey. NASA claims that fission and/or anti-matter propulsion offers an impules of about 4000 to 5000. To put that into persepective the shuttle's impulse is around 380. I could see this type of engine being used as a forerunner to other more advanced technologies.

    But I do agree it's long past time that we start looking at other planets and performing expirements there. There is still much to learn here but perhaps learning something new about how another planet's systems work might shed light on the things we don't understand about our own planet. The more you push the science I believe the more frequent the discoveries. We seem to be in some type of lull right now.

  9. #54
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Well, speaking as someone who works in R&D, the problem isnt lack of will, its lack of available funding. NASA is by far the largest drain on research funding. NASA doesnt really do any research, they mainly do development. That is, they apply existing technologies to existing problems. Noone is going to shut down NASA, so there is really no incentive for them to improve their methods. The closest thing we currently have to a research program is SBIR, which mostly follows the NASA pattern, existing problems solved with existing technology. Mankind doesnt currently have a need to move off world, so serious dollars wont be spent on achieving it.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  10. #55
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I cannot argue that terraforming is not a priority, and certainly makes little sense to be discussed outside an academic context. But I cannot agree on your comment on NASA not being research oriented.

    NASA is a lot more than the probes, satellites, orbiting telescopes we see being launched, or the utter useless ISS related missions. It is composed also of scientists and students actively doing research from as disparate fields as biology and mathematics,... engineers constantly tapping into new materials, shapes, processes... all, and more, actively funded through the several Research Programs currently under NASA's motherly wing.

    In fact, I could risk it's in the area of Research that NASA has truly shined for the past 30 years. NASA is still the largest reserach center in the world. It's not just one big spacerocket hangar. The vast majority of those in NASA's payroll are, I can almost bet, full and part-time researchers.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #56
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    The vast majority of those in NASA's payroll are, I can almost bet, full and part-time researchers.
    Actually I believe most of them are not. Administrative personel make up more than 50&#37; of NASA staff. And to clarify, there is a difference between Reasearch work and Development work. Most of the R&D NASA does is in the development area, not research. Research generates new knowledge, development applies existing knowledge to problems.
    Last edited by abachler; 06-30-2008 at 01:07 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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