Frozen water found on Mars

This is a discussion on Frozen water found on Mars within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Did I deny that science is a good thing or that it is needed? Did I say that the scientific ...

  1. #16
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Did I deny that science is a good thing or that it is needed? Did I say that the scientific method has not gotten us anywhere? No. I agree that because of the scientific method, peer review, and some amazing scientists in our age we have made some awesome discoveries and advancements.

    I just wanted to point out the fact that the scientific method cannot prove that something is true. It can provide lots of evidence and support (like you mentioned), but cannot provide absolute proof. I do not deny that it has been a strong factor in our civilization's development. I also wanted to point out that both science and religion are two separate ways of seeking truth.

    I was not arguing against Bubba's point that "Science is always up for debate" and "science creates progress", and the fact that conformance and absolutism is dangerous for science.
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  2. #17
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    I just wanted to point out the fact that the scientific method cannot prove that something is true.
    That statement is wrong. That argument is made by Religious retards all the time (not implying you are one). Science can and does prove things true every time you type a key on your keyboard or read this board it is proof that science is right about the existence of electrons and how they behave. Religion however cannot prove anything, true or false. In fact the whole foundation of religion is faith, which is the belief in something in spite of a complete lack of facts, evidence, or reproduceable results. Don't even try to hold religion up as any kind of alternative to science. If you want to believe that some invisible man created the universe and out of all the worlds in it took a special interest in a single species and its reproductive habits on one rather unremarkeable planet, that it desperately wants us to believe in it, but refuses to provide any direct evidence whatsoever, then by all means go ahead. Personally, I will pick logic and reason over emotion and ignorance any day.
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  3. #18
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Science can and does prove things true every time you type a key on your keyboard or read this board it is proof that science is right about the existence of electrons and how they behave.
    It depends on how much rigour do you expect from a proof. So, it is effectively proven that electrons exist and behave as we currently know them to behave, but perhaps more evidence will come to light that they behave differently from what we currently know, and then we may decide that the concept of an electron is no longer accurate. From one perspective, this could mean that the proof was not a proof to begin with (i.e., the rigour demanded is that when something is proven, it must always be true), but from another perspective it was proven until more evidence came to light (i.e., the rigour demanded is for a proof to follow from all known evidence). The latter demand of rigour certainly is more reasonable. Admittedly, electrons are a rather poor example since it is unlikely that we would reject the concept outright, but ideally the scientific method demands that we be open to this possibility.
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  4. #19
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    Why can't all scientists be creative like those guys who theorized about the cat in the box full of cyanide.

  5. #20
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Science can and does prove things
    You argued that science can prove things. I argued that the scientific method cannot. Those are two different arguments, so go back and rethink your argument and get it straight. One good way to do that is read the Wikipedia article that I linked to.

    Of course science might be able to prove that something is true. The scientific method cannot, never has, and never will be able to.

    It depends on how much rigour do you expect from a proof. So, it is effectively proven that electrons exist and behave as we currently know them to behave, but perhaps more evidence will come to light that they behave differently from what we currently know, and then we may decide that the concept of an electron is no longer accurate.
    I echo that.

    Religion however cannot prove anything, true or false. In fact the whole foundation of religion is faith, which is the belief in something in spite of a complete lack of facts, evidence, or reproduceable results.
    Once again, you are misconstruing my argument. I never said religion can prove anything. I said religion is a search for truth, just like science. Rethink your argument.
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  6. #21
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Wow, what the hell are they teaching in school these days...

    Religion isnt the search for truth in any way shape or form. Philosophy is the search for truth. A religion is a system of belief.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  7. #22
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Religion isnt the search for truth in any way shape or form. Philosophy is the search for truth. A religion is a system of belief.
    This is entirely dependent on where you position yourself. If from within a religious belief it is indeed the search for Truth and there's no denying it. If from outside, no. Definitely it has very little to do with Truth, in my opinion. Although one can still argue there's an intrinsic search for it on any religious belief.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #23
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Religion isnt the search for truth in any way shape or form. Philosophy is the search for truth. A religion is a system of belief.
    I would consider both philosophy and religion methods of searching for truth, but they go about it different ways. Philosophy is based upon the human intellect and reason. Religion is based upon faith and revelation.

    In an ideal situation (which of course this world is not an ideal situation), I hope anyone who conformed to a system of beliefs or anyone who simply believed in any principle would have done some amount of searching to see if that something was true. I believe what I do because I believe it to be the truth. Now, it is obvious that we are not in an ideal situation, not everyone is that way (many simply lead lives of tradition or indoctrination), and so I won't try to argue that. Nevertheless, by principle religion is a search for truth just like philosophy is too.
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  9. #24
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    I would consider both philosophy and religion methods of searching for truth, but they go about it different ways. Philosophy is based upon the human intellect and reason. Religion is based upon faith and revelation.
    So you agree that religion is based on things other than intellect, reason, facts, evidence, and reproduceable results. Adults call that 'make believe', fantasy, fiction, insanity, or if the subject insists it is true, outright lies.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  10. #25
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    DavidP I do not feel I have to respond to you. You were not with me in my classes nor do you know who I am short of this board. However religion is not a search for truth since most religions already feel they have the truth. I was never taught that it is a search for truth and most of my profs would probably be aghast at the claim.

    But let's stop the religion argument. My point was that a science that has deniers and believers is more akin to religion than science. I hope we can back away from this type of behavior and foster a scientific community that is not immune to nor afraid of debate.

    As I read it, it notes the fact there's hasn't been a true effort, on behalf of the scientific community, to disprove or support some of the more outrageous claims being currently produced.
    I would further this by saying that the more outrageous the claim the more concrete the evidence ought to be. Otherwise it's very suspicious. We obviously all realize that there is no consensus and the debate is far from over. Maybe people can look beyond the disaster channels and news outlets and begin to analyze the heart of the issue. Let's let science take the reigns and leave this absurd absolutism and manipulation behind. I'm a bit tired of the 'oh crap we are all gonna die and if you don't believe me you are an idiot' approach.

    And back on track: I highly doubt we will be going to Mars anytime soon. NASA's new baby has already been rumored to be put on hold. Good news is it is more than just a shuttle that stays in low earth orbit.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 06-25-2008 at 07:24 PM.

  11. #26
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    BTW, next month will also be an interesting month. The Cassini-Huygens mission reaches its end after 4 years of intensive study of the Jupiter system.

    Have been playing with Celestia a lot more now that I can finally load more detailed textures (here seen at 1440x900). And was tracking Cassini movements for next month when the mission ended. A quick lookup on the web revealed this to be correct.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    And back on track: I highly doubt we will be going to Mars anytime soon. NASA's new baby has already been rumored to be put on hold. Good news is it is more than just a shuttle that stays in low earth orbit.
    I don't think going to Mars without first learning how to live on the moon in a self-sustaining environment is a good idea. The moon should have been colonized decades ago, but that's another argument. Bottom line: First, hone your skills on our nearest heavenly body, perhaps consider a technological feat of creating a life-boat type space platform positioned between Earth n' Mars that could offer astronauts a safe-haven in case of in-flight trouble. I'd assume we're looking at 50 plus years before what we'd like to see in space exploration becomes a reality. Much too late for me (I'll be long dead), but I'd assume the younger people here will get to see it all.

  13. #28
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    I was wondering, do those mars probes have tools to actually analyze materials, or does it have to be brought back here to do detailed analysis?

    Also isn't space radiation one of the major drawbacks of colonizing mars?

  14. #29
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    The moon should have been colonized decades ago, but that's another argument.
    What for?
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    It's not like there were space dinosaurs who's bones we can cultivate.

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