Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón

This is a discussion on Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; While not entirely happy with the result of the referendum in Ireland, I cannot but completely support it. The attempts ...

  1. #1
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón

    While not entirely happy with the result of the referendum in Ireland, I cannot but completely support it.

    The attempts at establishing an European Constitution have been a major eye opener for me on the state of our Democracies and the EU in general as both an economical and political organization. If you asked me some years ago what I thought of England not adhering to the Euro, for instance, I would have told you they were a bunch of pharisaic hypocrites always following an historical tendency to wish their island was in another part of the world. And I would finish up with, I wish they were. But if you ask me today I'd tell you they are smarter than us and we should listen more.

    And this means exactly what it means; As the years move forward I'm slowly becoming anti-european. In Europe these are called leftists and communists, or ironically enough, fascists. What is funny however is that I'm none of those, and so aren't many of those who the day before yesterday said no in Ireland. And neither are those who last year, a little all over Europe said no to the first attempt.

    What exactly the problem with EU? Why can't it seem to be able to establish a Constitution? In my almighty gaudiness, I know.

    The referendums for the EU Constitution are a joke. The european population spoke before. They didn't want it. It was vetoed in referendum. But an year later, in Lisbon a treaty is signed that creates a new document which is exactly the same as the previous one, but sold as new. And this time, because those we elected think Democracy is there to serve THEM, we didn't have a chance at a referendum. The document was approved by the leaders without consulting us... And so Democracy is served, right? Yeah.

    But with one exception. Ireland where the constitution forces a refrendum... and again (my belly still hurts from so much laughing. You Irish rule!) it was vetoed.

    Can't they just see we DON'T want it? That as far as anyone can tell this is trying to give a step longer than their legs can handle? Europe is still not ready. The population a) doesn't understand a document that has become illegible due to so many changes, b) accept the new voting system as it places too much power in the hands of more populous countries, c) hasn't yet gained an European conscious.

    And it's c) there that is the biggest problem. And the most shameful one considering we are being sold the EU brand for 30 years. As long as the various country governments keep waving the EU flag for their own personal agendas and don't responsibly talk in European to their populations, the populations will keep distancing themselves fro Europe, as much as they do it from their local politicians.

    The problem with the parties in power all around Europe is that their mouths often break their noses. They just can't grasp the concept, once and for frigging all(!), that the only way to make their populations gain an European conscious is to not use the EU as a flag for their own personal electing interests! Stop doing that!

    Bunch of irritating fools.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 06-15-2008 at 07:50 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #2
    and the Hat of Clumsiness GanglyLamb's Avatar
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    I think that if you would ask any european what exactly is stated in the treaty there will be few capable of answering correct.

    I admit I heard of it vaguely before the voting madness kicked of in Ireland.

    BUT it was only after they voted no that the media gave a clear description of the most important issues in the treaty. After reading the most important things (which I already forgot - but at the time seemed very logical and reasonable) I would vote yes (not that I can but anyhow, im supporting it).
    For example I think one of the things in the treaty was about having an official body that can act like a spokesman for europe, because right now we don't have such a thing .... what is a union without a central place to talk to or discuss things with (without having to assemble all the countries that is)?


    So the real question to be asked here is, do people in europe bother enough being a european citizen? How many of the people that live in europe feel that they live in europe, sure all of us benefit from europe as in lifting borders and having free trade etc...
    I think we (europeans) need re-education about europe as a body (socially-economically and politically); as in what benefits do we have from it, how does the rest of the world look at europe etc ...

    Maybe I'm not the best example here, but I think there are alot of people just like me who don't know the benefits (apart from the fact that you just need your id to go and travel to any place within europe without asking a visa or anything - and I only know this because I like to travel and therefore know the benefits from EU regarding this matter).

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    and the hat of wrongness Salem's Avatar
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    It's not that I'm against the idea of a united europe, it's just the gleeful little napoleons all queuing up just to lay claim to "I made it happen". In other words, they're (the politicians) pushing way too hard.

    If they just stuck to removing obstacles (like say freedom of movement) and then left it alone to see what happened, then people would move to accepting it over say a generation or two. So what it takes 5 generations, it doesn't matter to me. It's only the politicos who want their name in history (or their snout in the trough) who want to push this through ASAP.

    The constitution should be a nice simple document with very broad principles which everyone can agree to, and which joe average can read (and fully comprehend) in a couple of hours.

    Not 400 pages of weasly lawyer-speak with topics such as (and I quote)
    Quote Originally Posted by lisbon treaty
    Protocol (No 37) on the financial consequences of the expiry of the ECSC treaty and
    on the Research fund for Coal and Steel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 327
    Seriously, WTF is something like that doing in a constitution for a continent?
    I'm sure it's important, but this document is not the scope for it.
    If you dance barefoot on the broken glass of undefined behaviour, you've got to expect the occasional cut.
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    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Inflated diction is a direct consequence of inflated self importance. Stop electing politicians that arent plain spoken and you will stop getting these kinds of documents.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Inflated diction is a direct consequence of inflated self importance. Stop electing politicians that arent plain spoken and you will stop getting these kinds of documents.
    At least we know that regardless of what side of the planet we may live on....all of us have politicians that are full of hot air. I would bet that most of the world's politicians have completely lost touch with those they were elected to govern.

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    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    At least we know that regardless of what side of the planet we may live on....all of us have politicians that are full of hot air. I would bet that most of the world's politicians have completely lost touch with those they were elected to govern.

    They are so out of touch with reality, that they hve to hire 'advisors' to help translate reality into terms they can understand.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    I challenge anyone here to try to read the thing in full and be able to come out and tell me what it is. It's a pile of crap sewn together with confusion. I know one person who read the whole thing (I tried to but failed on a number of occasions). Not even our commissioner to Europe read it! Same with our finance minister. And these are the people who are saying that we should have voted yes!

    I have two big issues with it. The first is that it would make Ireland neutral up to the time of war. Then we take the EU's side. Ireland has always been (semi)neutral (neutral, but we like some more than others). We are neither big enough or powerful enough to matter, really (except for constitions). And I think we should always be like that too. The second problem I had with it was that should a company from a country which has a lower average wage than Ireland get a contract (say in construction), in my country that company is only obliged to pay the wages of their country of origion. Ireland is not cheap. If that got passed how could Irish construction companies (for my example), compete? It's leeching a healthy heart. That's an absolute farce. I don't want to be part of a quasi-country called the EU. I still want to be Irish and the uniqueness which it brings. As far as it lowering our power in voting... our population is like 4 million or so. Why should our vote be closely comparable to a country ten times our size? Depends how a country's vote is measured. By population or membership to the union.

    I like the way 70,000 or so people made a decision for over 700 million!

    Nobody understood the treaty. People voted no because they were pressured to vote yes and because the lack of reasonable and readable information on it. I also find it ironic that the government (which is meant to be the voice of the people and is meant to act under their desires), assumes the role of 'mind of the people' and attempts to curve their decisions.

    I'd prefer to be known as Irish. Not European. I'm not overly patriotic but am proud of my heritage and identity. Out of curiosity would the Americans here prefer to be known by the state in which they live or as American?

    >> BUT it was only after they voted no that the media gave a clear description of the most important issues in the treaty.
    If you could remember them it'd be great. I found no compelling reasons to vote yes. I'm happy the way things were before the whole thing came up.

    >> (which I already forgot - but at the time seemed very logical and reasonable)
    Politicians are spin doctors. They can make anything seem reasonable.

    >> For example I think one of the things in the treaty was about having an official body that can act like a spokesman for europe,
    Why? We are all individual countries, with different languages, customs and idealogies. I don't want what the French, say, want. Not necessarily anyway.

    BTW, Mario: C&#225; bhfuair t&#250; do chuid Gaeilge?
    Last edited by twomers; 06-15-2008 at 12:54 PM.

  8. #8
    and the Hat of Clumsiness GanglyLamb's Avatar
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    Oke, I found the part of the news that explained some of the items in the treaty, ill translate it briefly (my translating skills suck):

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.deredactie.be/cm/de.redactie/mediatheek/1.322694
    Like every average club as the club of 27 countries it has a chairman to lead the meetings. At this moment this is a temporary person (for 6 months each), the treaty gets rid of this. Europe gets an appointed president who will be the chairman in 4 meetings every year and that for 2.5 year. This person is elected by the leaders of all governments (not by the people as in US).
    ....
    There will be a minister of foreign affairs for the EU, along with european diplomats, they should let the european voice sound louder throughout the world...
    European parliament will be getting more power since they would be able to decide if laws make it or not. But if this body tries to govern too much then the national parliaments can take action (... dont ask me how im just translating :d).
    There will also be a civilian initiative, if there are more then 1 million votes, they can ask the european commision to create a new law proposal...
    >> For example I think one of the things in the treaty was about having an official body that can act like a spokesman for europe,
    Why? We are all individual countries, with different languages, customs and idealogies. I don't want what the French, say, want. Not necessarily anyway.
    You are right we are individual countries, but it is not because we have different culture, language etc that we cannot share the same opinion on global issues and act accordinly in a joint effort. Im thinking about: should we help country x to go to war, what are the actions we can take as a whole to stop climate change, have an even tighter grip and view on civil rights troughout europe and beyond, etc...

    I'd prefer to be known as Irish. Not European. I'm not overly patriotic but am proud of my heritage and identity. Out of curiosity would the Americans here prefer to be known by the state in which they live or as American?
    I also prefer to be known as a belgian instead of a european(although Belgium is again building up a great reputation with all these child rapists, murderers and serial killers but thats not my point).
    But ask yourself this question how much influence in the world would America have if all the states did not pull on the same rope... , each state has it own laws etc but this is not preventing the correct functioning of the controlling body known as the United states of America.

    Programming wise look at it like this, EU is a class where all other countries can derive from. We all inherit the constitution but for the rest we can be free and still have our own laws, culture language etc. Its not like the EU is an interface that we should implement without room for modification etc...
    Last edited by GanglyLamb; 06-15-2008 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #9
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twomers View Post
    BTW, Mario: Cá bhfuair tú do chuid Gaeilge?
    Nah. Not really. Very little in fact. I'm just fascinated by your culture and history. When I can I do some research on my books or the web.

    ...

    Hearing Barroso yesterday saying that the process should keep moving forward makes me wonder if they will learn anything from the Irish veto. Apparently not. Apparently our esteemed leaders will eventually stuck this document down our throats whether we want it or not... And so we get served another dish of democracy.

    I'm hoping this is not how it will end. Governments in Europe are rapidly approaching the point in which their populations are starting to lose their temper.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    I have never had sex with a European.
    I'm not immature, I'm refined in the opposite direction.

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