View Poll Results: Should prostitution be legalized in the US?

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  • Yes

    9 37.50%
  • No

    15 62.50%

Should it be legalized - Part Deux

This is a discussion on Should it be legalized - Part Deux within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I don't know, but I have to ask if you had the same concern for young people forced into dealing ...

  1. #46
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    I don't know, but I have to ask if you had the same concern for young people forced into dealing drugs as a way of living in the other thread?
    That is a legitimate concern: drug users may end up selling drugs. Fortunately it's not topical to this debate. But drugs are a manufacted product which implies that it has an objective value in the first place. Is it ok for minors to sell drugs? Not in my opinion, but I don't see the consequences going away when we legalize the production and marketing of cannabis. Over half of meth houses are found with the help of concerned citizens, for example - I see the same thing could happen with finding unlicensed cannabis dealers. We have the ways and the means to regulate: as I pointed out to Elysia, the responsibilities of the DEA wouldn't go away when the law changes. Who the DEA arrests and under what circumstances would.

    If a liscense to sell were falsified, their legal age would betray them if they were a young person, and you would simply convict in any other case. ... If I were a judge.

    In the context of that argument, I guess we could argue simplicities. I don't think concerned citizens deserve to be confounded by the legal activities going on around them. I'd draw a parallel to other types of abuse (specifically in the home) and how difficult it is to prosecute. Because you've got the registered prostitute, and then you have the person who was coerced into the sex trade who needs to report her personal incident. Provided that even happens, then you need to employ the police to investigate the incident and find sufficient evidence to prosecute. But once again the vurden falls on the proponent in the debate. What would constitute sufficient evidence to convince a jury?

    This is why I said it undermines the statute we have for other sex crimes. I have little faith in a simple registry in this case. Let's assume a prostitute has her pimp arrested: On one hand, you could prove that she has done sexual activity through physical evidence, but legal documentation for her employment could be easily falsified. We'd be dependent on the technology and eye witness testimony to convict which to me is not enough. I'd much rather convict all the cases. Selling yourself may be construed as a service, but given the difficulty I see in legal conviction and how it further obfuscates real abuse cases as I see it, I can't support it.

    Moral decay was sort of shrugged off in this debate too, but that's ok.

    Elysia suggested that human trafficking is unrelated to prostitution. Well, it is, if you squint really hard. There is no legitimate counterclaim yet: human trafficking is how prostution rings seem to be running themselves around the world, irrespective of the willing participants. I just wanted to point that out to you Elysia. If human trafficking is something that we would like the law to handle, then we must outlaw its practices as I see it. I find other approaches impractical.

  2. #47
    and the Hat of Clumsiness GanglyLamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    Really? You mean the dozens of movies that reference the desire to visit Amsterdam for the prostitution and marijuana didn't clue you in?

    I appreciate your arguments and I agree that Amsterdam has done some things correctly to clear the ground of its potency, as you put it. However, the factors that lead to marijuana use and the factors that lead to prostitution are very different. One is fairly innoncent (simple curiousity) and the other is not (desperation). Prostitution your body is led by the same factors that lead someone to rob a store. A desire for money at the risks of what I listed above. Taking away the potential that you may be arrested will not destroy the risk in being a prostitute. It will still be a job only for those desperate enough to accept the risks and as such it will remain in majority under ground with "the wrong crowd."

    There is nothing wrong with someone enjoying the company of someone and willing to pay for it... it's human nature to want companionship. I'm not throwing you in the wrong crowd if you enjoy this... but the fact is, among those who do enjoy this... you're attracting almost anyone and everyone willing to violate the morals and respect of these women.
    As for the movies to be honest I have only seen one or two that talk about it, but like I said , you can easily replace Amsterdam with any place you like (Ill give you one since I know the situation there first hand: Lagos - Nigeria). Only difference is that in those other places those things are illegal but like said with the right leverage it makes it perfectly legal to do so (or at least it appears to be legal, thus lowering the step you have to take).

    You are right about the risks involved with prostitution. But if I would need to choose with which prostitute I would do anything. Ill go for the legalised one, reason: much higher standards all around probably...

    Compare an escort service that also offers sex as the cherry on top of the pie or a regular prostitute dwelling the streets ... Ill know which one to pick.

    So be legalizing you raise standards and expectations, so the illegal ones will be getting less attraction, therefore making it less appealing to work in the underground community, since indeed the incentive for all this is money.

  3. #48
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    Elysia suggested that human trafficking is unrelated to prostitution. Well, it is, if you squint really hard. There is no legitimate counterclaim yet: human trafficking is how prostution rings seem to be running themselves around the world, irrespective of the willing participants. I just wanted to point that out to you Elysia. If human trafficking is something that we would like the law to handle, then we must outlaw its practices as I see it. I find other approaches impractical.
    Yes, it's true that trafficking and sexual abuse are often tied to prostitution (where prostitution happens, these often happens too), but if you'd look at the law, they are two different things:
    Sexual abuse or any other abuse is illegal by the law.
    Prostitution is a term for selling the body for money, not abusing someone, and therefore, they are not the same thing.

    I meant to separate these categories, because I do find nothing wrong in selling your body for money (if you like that sort of thing, not because you are forced to do it). However, there IS something wrong with abuse, and it should be disallowed. The law should protect against that.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    Really? You mean the dozens of movies that reference the desire to visit Amsterdam for the prostitution and marijuana didn't clue you in?
    You keep citing television and movies. You know how many TV shows and movies say there are aliens among us?

  5. #50
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GanglyLamb View Post
    As for the movies to be honest I have only seen one or two that talk about it, but like I said , you can easily replace Amsterdam with any place you like (Ill give you one since I know the situation there first hand: Lagos - Nigeria). Only difference is that in those other places those things are illegal but like said with the right leverage it makes it perfectly legal to do so (or at least it appears to be legal, thus lowering the step you have to take).
    Yes, but you misunderstood the appeal being legal prostitution and marijuana. It's not... it's that on top of the fact that you're surrounded by a completely westernized culture. Something western tourism would feel more comfortable with. It's also nice because it's surrounded by other culture and history that many people find appealing (the other European countries included). The movies (and there are more than two) that reference Amsterdam aren't doing it because it's the easiest word to pronounce... they do it because it offers things that very, very few other communities offer.


    Quote Originally Posted by GanglyLamb View Post
    So be legalizing you raise standards and expectations, so the illegal ones will be getting less attraction, therefore making it less appealing to work in the underground community, since indeed the incentive for all this is money.
    But that's where you're wrong. It will certainly make it less appealing to the above-ground commmunity and the people who can afford escorts... but for your guys that would rather not pay that much and just want a quickie... they'll settle for the illegal girls. And trust me... there is a large community of people that will not want to dish out the extra cash.
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  6. #51
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    You keep citing television and movies. You know how many TV shows and movies say there are aliens among us?
    You're right... the idea that thousands of American and European college students visit Amsterdam every year for the reasons listed are nothing but a fictional conspiracy theory used in Hollywood for its entertainment value.

    Good call.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    Y

    But that's where you're wrong. It will certainly make it less appealing to the above-ground commmunity and the people who can afford escorts... but for your guys that would rather not pay that much and just want a quickie... they'll settle for the illegal girls. And trust me... there is a large community of people that will not want to dish out the extra cash.
    And then they risk what they risk now - potential disease, violence, etc. Their choice.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    You're right... the idea that thousands of American and European college students visit Amsterdam every year for the reasons listed are nothing but a fictional conspiracy theory used in Hollywood for its entertainment value.

    Good call.
    I'm saying that citing vague references to movies and TV shows, and now unfounded statistics, isn't very compelling. Can you cite these statistics? Have you been there?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    Moral decay was sort of shrugged off in this debate too, but that's ok.
    Where do you stop with legislating morality and behavior? You're OK with mj use, others are not. There are people that still want to outlaw alcohol, and of course cigarettes. Adultery is immoral, and draws the death penalty in some countries.

    And what about pornography, hard and the soft variety that you can find on broadcast television in prime time?

    Where does it stop?

    Like I said, most people are OK outlawing consensual behavior that they're uncomfortable with, seemingly ignoring the fact that they may well some day not be in the majority.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    I'm saying that citing vague references to movies and TV shows, and now unfounded statistics, isn't very compelling. Can you cite these statistics? Have you been there?
    To start with your last question, yes. For the second to last question... I get absolutely nothing out of convincing you of anything in this debate. We're on the internet and I'm more busy than my recently series of posts have made it appear. I'm not going to do your homework for you... everything I've said here can be supported by facts. If you really care, feel free to look them up. If you don't and choose to ignore them, I really could care less...

    Here is something you can look up... top college spring break destinations. It starts with Cancun, Mexico and if you go just a bit down the list you'll see Amsterdam, Netherlands. (After a few more hot beach spots)
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    To start with your last question, yes. For the second to last question... I get absolutely nothing out of convincing you of anything in this debate. We're on the internet and I'm more busy than my recently series of posts have made it appear. I'm not going to do your homework for you... everything I've said here can be supported by facts. If you really care, feel free to look them up. If you don't and choose to ignore them, I really could care less...
    Sorry, but that's a weak, lazy argument. You can't blurt out numbers and then say "look them up". Well, you can, but it doesn't hold much water.

  12. #57
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Well, I'd vote yes if I were to be living in the US.

    The reason is basically because criminalizing prostitution interferes with public freedom. I don't think however, contrary to drugs, legalizing prostitution will solve any of the problems it currently faces a little all over the world - the two most notable ones being in my opinion human trafficking and child prostitution.

    I cannot for a moment see how this would magically be solved by legalizing prostitution. In fact, it probably creates the conditions for an aggravation since criminals can better disguise their activities under a false hood of legality; an assumption they can't currently take advantage of.

    But again we are faced with a problem... what about sex as a product? Is it really right to criminalize it? As far as I know, the only reason we do it is because of a traditional prejudice towards the activity coupled with yet strongly ingrained morality in our western society (prostitution is a normal, healthy and a respected activity among some tribes in Africa and South America). I mean, human oddities sell their bodies in freak shows, daredevils sell their lives in their shows, soldiers sell their lives in war time, famous people sell their images in commercials, good natured people give away their kidneys, tissue, blood and liver pieces, gymnasts sell their skills in the circus, and we all eventually sell ours at work.

    What is exactly that makes sex different? In my view, simply an almost genetic prejudice. Prostitution is legal all over the world when a wife sells her body to her husband to get a new car, when a young and unskilled man sells his body for the ability to marry an older richer woman. Prostitution is legal all over the world when when young couples trade sex experiences because of the ride of one of them, or simply because of the pleasure. We do not look down at these activities even though some of them should be frowned at.

    I don't think legalizing prostitution will solve any issues, I already said that. But I don't think criminalize did either. Again we are ignoring the simple fact it exists, it will always exist, and the simple ancient premise behind the so-called transaction was always consensual sex. Having a government tell me I cannot do that irks me.
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  13. #58
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    What is exactly that makes sex different? In my view, simply an almost genetic prejudice. Prostitution is legal all over the world when a wife sells her body to her husband to get a new car, when a young and unskilled man sells his body for the ability to marry an older richer woman. Prostitution is legal all over the world when when young couples trade sex experiences because of the ride of one of them, or simply because of the pleasure. We do not look down at these activities even though some of them should be frowned at.

    I don't think legalizing prostitution will solve any issues, I already said that. But I don't think criminalize did either. Again we are ignoring the simple fact it exists, it will always exist, and the simple ancient premise behind the so-called transaction was always consensual sex. Having a government tell me I cannot do that irks me.
    This is where we disagree. I see nothing inherently wrong with performing sexual acts for money. As you suggest, from the perspective of the person doing it, it's no different than how we do our jobs. The inherent problem with prostitution, in my opinion, is that it acts as a medium for the transmission of disease and, as such, endangers the community.

    Now, is this any difference then any other kind of promiscuity that exists in today's society? I'm not trying to say that disease and selectivity of your partner is not important in society, now... but it's hard to argue that adding an additional legal medium for spreading these diseases increases the risk. So, while all of those occupations that you listed are good examples of selling one's body to an abnormal behavior, they also are all occupations that are performed at the expense and risk of the performer. With prostitution, it's at the expense of both performers and every partner they may have after that.
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  14. #59
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    Sorry, but that's a weak, lazy argument. You can't blurt out numbers and then say "look them up". Well, you can, but it doesn't hold much water.
    It doesn't need to hold much water... none of this matters. It's just a simple conversation that will result in nothing more than the thousands of similar conversations before it. If I were lobbying for the anti-prostitution party and getting paid for my time, I would be more than happy to give you the numbers that support what I've said. However, I'm not... and I will leave the research to the interested party.
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  15. #60
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    Well, freedom is not absolute, so that's why we have government. The reason governments should legislate when there is a concensus (well a large majority) is because we must consider how our resources are best applied. We must also consider how the law can be consistently applied. This is why debates in a freely governed society are healthy.

    The reason for the difference between my two very different stances on the issues that you keep using medievalelks: we have examples of well regulated substances and I see the law being consistently applied with existing infrastructure. I refuse to accept a hasty suggestion that we need to legalize something unless you can prove to me that we will have the ability to apply the laws that it will affect. Prostitution provides grounds for deserved prison sentences and appeal privelidges which put victims of forced labor and abuse at ease, and assurance that even suspected events will be prosecuted. Assuaging my worries is welcome, but we need to be beyond a shadow of a doubt here.

    You can still have sex when it is free and consentual after all. Freedom is about minimum standards. You respect everyone's body the same this way. And, well, Mario articulated some of this argument very well.

    But to him I would say that the important thing is that yes even in the home the wife has a legal recourse if she wanted to indict her husband. You can have your partner arrested for giving you a new car after a sexual act. Fortunately, you arent a judge and don't have to make the decision to sentence or take it to a higher court. The current law has a recourse for victims though.

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