I find myself caring less and less about the language...

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  1. #1
    Ethernal Noob
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    I find myself caring less and less about the language...

    And more and more about the programming. I used to swear by C++ even though I wasn't in any way exceptional at programming, I know the syntax, I know the STL, I know how to use the language, but I wasn't able to create anything because I didn't have as much footing in designing a program as much as I did using a language. Now I find myself using C#, Java, and C++ without preferring one over the other. They each have drawbacks but I rarely notice it on newer PCs. I just think I'm over the language loyalist of old.

  2. #2
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    I fully agree with you! Personal liking of a language is of no significance in real world!
    What if you are a C devotee, you will have to use PHP (eg.) for web scripting, otherwise be prepared to spend years!

  3. #3
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
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    The language is your tool to create the programs. It doesnt matter what it is, they are all suited to do one thing end of the day. Its like a car, doesnt matter what make or model, it still gets you from A to B.

    Programming is all about learning the syntax and doing somthing with it. Graunted, some languages are better or more "equiped" to do things faster or more portable than others are, but its all about choosing the right tool for the job.
    I'm just trying to be a better person - My Name Is Earl

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    I wish to post an example here, I just wrote my Magic Square for two languages, first I wrote in C++, then a basic editing, and the program is a python program!
    Modern languages are so identical, except their specific APIs/fields of work, etc, that language choice hardly matters!

    Magic Square:
    C++ version:
    Code:
    #include <iostream>
    #include <vector>
    
    void magic(int n)
    {
    	std::cout << "Magic Square: " << n << "x" << n << std::endl;
    	std::vector < std::vector <int> > grid;
    	for (int i=1; i<=n; i++) grid.push_back(std::vector<int>(n, 0));
    	int row = 0, col = n/2;
    	int n2 = n*n, v = 1;
    	int r, c;
    	grid[row][col] = v;
    	while (v != n2) {
    		v++;
    		if ((row-1) >= 0) r = row-1;
    		else r = n-1;
    		if ((col+1) < n) c = col+1;
    		else c = 0;
    		if (grid[r][c]) {
    			if ((row+1) < n) {
    				r = row+1;
    				if (grid[r][col]) break;
    				c = col;
    			}
    		}
    		grid[r][c] = v;
    		row = r;
    		col = c;
    	}
    	for (r=0; r<n; r++) {
    		for (c=0; c<n; c++) {
    			if (grid[r][c] < 10) std::cout << " ";
    			std::cout << grid[r][c] << " ";
    		}
    		std::cout << std::endl;
    	}
    }
    
    
    int main(int argc, char *argv[])
    {
    	if (argc > 1) {
    		while (--argc) {
    			int n = atoi(*++argv);
    			if (n &#37; 2 == 0) {
    				std::cout << "Only odd size allowed for Magic Square: " 
    					<< n << std::endl;
    			} else {
    				magic(n);
    			}
    		}
    	} else {
    		magic(3);
    	}
    	return 0;
    }
    Python version:
    Code:
    import sys
    
    def magic(n):
    	print "Magic Square: %dx%d" % (n, n)
    	grid = [ [ 0 for c in xrange(n) ] for r in xrange(n) ]
    	row, col = 0, n/2
    	n2, v = n*n, 1;
    	r, c = 0, 0
    	grid[row][col] = v
    	while v != n2:
    		v += 1
    		if (row-1) >= 0: r = row-1
    		else: r = n-1
    		if (col+1) < n: c = col+1
    		else: c = 0
    		if grid[r][c]:
    			if (row+1) < n:
    				r = row+1
    				if grid[r][col]: break
    				c = col
    		grid[r][c] = v
    		row = r
    		col = c
    	for r in xrange(n):
    		for c in xrange(n):
    			print "%2d" % grid[r][c],
    		print
    
    
    if len(sys.argv) > 1:
    	for arg in sys.argv[1:]:
    		n = int(arg)
    		if n % 2 == 0:
    			print "Only odd size allowed for Magic Square:", n
    		else:
    			magic(n)
    else:
    	magic(3)
    
    sys.exit(0)
    Last edited by manav; 05-15-2008 at 07:19 AM.

  5. #5
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manav View Post
    I fully agree with you! Personal liking of a language is of no significance in real world!
    Familiarity is though. For more advanced projects, its better to have a guy with 10 years in one language than 5 years in 2 languages. Then again, in the field I work in, there arent any programmers. The ability to program is just another skill, not a profession in itself.

    What if you are a C devotee, you will have to use PHP (eg.) for web scripting, otherwise be prepared to spend years!
    I don't really mess with web toys that much, therefore I have no need to use PHP or any other scripting language. The flavor of the day is that all programmers end up doing something that is web based, when in fact most programming is completely unrelated to the web. It's just that the people that focused on web based 'programming' can't find work in the engineering fields and so end up teaching. So of course they teach what they know.

    Any broad based statement such as you made is fatally flawed because it assumes that your experience is the norm.
    Last edited by laserlight; 05-15-2008 at 09:31 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Familiarity is though. For more advanced projects, its better to have a guy with 10 years in one language than 5 years in 2 languages. Then again, in the field I work in, there arent any programmers. The ability to program is just another skill, not a profession in itself.
    Whatever ...

    I don't really mess with web toys that much, therefore I have no need to use PHP or any other scripting language. The flavor of the day is that all programmers end up doing something that is web based, when in fact most programming is completely unrelated to the web. It's just that the people that focused on web based 'programming' can't find work in the engineering fields and so end up teaching. So of course they teach what they know.
    This forum is a toy? The whole web based business is a toy?
    Last edited by laserlight; 05-15-2008 at 09:31 AM.

  7. #7
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    I have taken steps to remove the bickering. Kindly keep on topic.
    C + C++ Compiler: MinGW port of GCC
    Version Control System: Bazaar

    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  8. #8
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    well, I was bickering about all the bickering, but yeah, thanks.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo0086 View Post
    well, I was bickering about all the bickering, but yeah, thanks.
    what kind of thanks it is
    if you see that you posted bickerings then why would you post them in first place!

    anyway laserlight, i will not thank you, it was very hard to size each '!' symbol!

  10. #10
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Thanks laser, Ill try not to step in it next time.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  11. #11
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    languages are tools right.
    but for me they are like toys i play with all of them php,python,perl,javascript,java,c/c++,asm,vb,4th,ruby and once i created my own little language to play with it was fun.

  12. #12
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo0086 View Post
    I just think I'm over the language loyalist of old.
    Despite having always been a critic of unnecessary fundamentalisms, I'm not when it comes to building our own personal list of preferences and swearing over it. I think for the most part of us, we are drawn into it. There's something about the programming activity that facilitates a biased attitude.

    I don't see that as a problem as long as we are willing to slightly change that personal list of preferences as we acquire new experiences or remain objective when shown something that contrasts with our beliefs at the time; i.e. fight our tendency to fundamentalism.

    Having tried at some point or another more programming languages than I can remember if asked about it, I agree programming languages essentially deliver on their specific areas. However, my own experiences inevitably lead to some preferences and loyalisms. For instance, my career was built around business solutions - invoicing, salaries, etc. For that reason I consider Visual Basic one of the best languages I ever worked with, the most rewarding, and the one which gave me more pleasure, despite the laughter it may draw from some. This "toy language" like some like to call it payed my bills for the better part of 15 years, allowed me to start my own business and it is the sole responsible for leading today a quiet life with few financial worries. Customers were also pleased, the language delivered results fast, it was stable, reliable and with excellent performance.

    But on the other hand, I fully appreciate C++ for its power and what I call, for the lack of a better name, coherent design, something that was completely out of the picture in VB. I reserve a soft spot for any language supporting functional programming (Lisp, Scheme, Haskell) and in contrast I'm addicted to Ruby. Conversely I don't appreciate Java since I fail to draw any enjoyment from it (even back in the days when Java was going to save the world), and I abhor the .net family of programming languages, failing to see what benefit they bring outside the scope of Microsoft own commercial interests, that Java can't.

    What I'm trying to say is that I find no problem in being critical and even loyalist. Criticism tends to make things better.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #13

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    when i get drunk i try to program my cat!
    I'm not immature, I'm refined in the opposite direction.

  14. #14
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    pictures please!

  15. #15
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    I hear you, but I detest C++ FUD that gets spread by advocates of other languages. Why don't people just use those languages and be happy? C++ has got to be the most rundown programming language ever, mostly by people who have no clue how to use it.

    That said, if there was more of a market for Python I'd invest more time using it on the side. I just can't justify it since the job market is almost non-existent, but I really like it.

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