Prayers to Burma

This is a discussion on Prayers to Burma within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Now hold on a second. Isn't America being villianized now for being involved in a war it has "no business ...

  1. #31
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    Now hold on a second. Isn't America being villianized now for being involved in a war it has "no business being in"? And you wanted them landing on the shores of France in the 1930s?

    Whatever.
    While I think Neo 1's sentiments were a little rash, comparing WW2 with the current wars is in no way a like for like comparison. WW2 presented a situation that could only be overcome through co-operation and the outcome was in the interest of all allied countries, including America. Its a perfect example of how important co-operation is. This kind of unification is impossible to attain through means that abachler suggested.

    For example take the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The current American government wanted to go and start a war, most European countries were strongly opposed to this so Bush took the Abachler approach and created a confrontation by insisting that anyone who's not going to join the war is against them. By completely ignoring the opinion of the rest of the world while being caught up in the post 9/11 mob mentality America lost much of its credibility. Ultimately what the American government has managed to do over the last few years in increasingly isolate themselves, which ironically is what caused the downfall of the nazis.

    Until recently Americans seem to have been oblivious as to how much the rest of the world opposed this aggressive attitude. When I was travelling in Australia in 2004 I met americans that pretended to be canadian because they were so fed up with all the grief that they would get about their governments actions. Personally I think its unfair to judge anyone on the actions of their nations government. Thankfully the american popular sentiment seems to be shifting tho.

  2. #32
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    Depression? Who's spreading myths and untruths now?
    Depression might be a bit overkill, but the Dollars is worth next to nothings now. Some years ago it cost more to buy things from the USA then from home, now I can save about 30% by ordering from US

  3. #33
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    Look, I know everyone thinks protest adn peaceful demonstrations cna change thign but they cant. All they do is get your picture on the television. If you REALLY want to change things you have to kill the people that oppose you, or at least intimidate them into ceasing to oppose you. Particularly when dealign with people that are conditioned to killing all that oppose them, you can use no lesser means to sway them. Half measures will only diminish your resources and serve to strengthen their resolve. If that cold hard reality doesn't sit well with you, then tough.
    India got her freedom through Satyagraha You don't always need violence to achieve freedom from oppressors.
    Last edited by PING; 05-11-2008 at 08:03 AM.
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  4. #34
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    What exacly are we doing that offends you so? Lets see we overthrew a brutal regime in Iraq and are bringing stability to an extremely unstable region.
    Excuse me! Stability?
    In your dreams. While it is indisputable the fact it was a brutal regime, Saddam was a factor of stability in the region. The only one. That is why USA financed and supported his regime and the war on Iran. If anything the region is now one of the most dangerous places in the world. Chaos, not stability is what was brought to the Middle East. Thank you very much. We feel much safer now.

    Oh wait, I think France is ........ed because they had a back door deal with Saddam that we cancelled as soon as we took over. So France was and still is supporting terrorism, count yourself lucky that all it cost you was your oil deal.
    You have to understand at this point that very few, outside possibly your little circle of close friends and those radical enough in the US or outside of it to believe in this crap, agree that France is supporting terrorism.

    The thought alone is so mind-boggling that it can only come from the mind of a) anyone red-eyed enough to become an idiot b) an idiot c) anyone trying to justify their idiocy.

    Meanwhile, Saddam was not a terrorist. In fact, Saddam was a sworn enemy of Al-Qaeda, being this a sunni movement. I'm surprised you still think as you were told to, instead of thinking for yourself. The fact Al-Qaeda and Saddam's regime were so far apart is something everyone always knew and part of the reason Saddam was armed and financed by the US for years and years, since it was the only one in the region facing the Sunni regime in Iran. I'm still surprised as the american public in general bought this one. In Europe almost no one did.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #35
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PING View Post
    India got her freedom through Satyagraha You don't always need violence to achieve freedom from oppressors.
    Lies, a collegue of mine is Indian. He says that the 'peaceful' revolution really didn't do anything, btu get sall teh credit in the west. It was the armed ebellion that freed the country, but you don't hear about it because armed resistance isn't 'Politically Correct'.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  6. #36
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    Lies, a collegue of mine is Indian. He says that the 'peaceful' revolution really didn't do anything, btu get sall teh credit in the west. It was the armed ebellion that freed the country, but you don't hear about it because armed resistance isn't 'Politically Correct'.
    So, you base all your opinions on heresy ?
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  7. #37
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    No, I think Abachler bases most of his opinions on fantasy.

    What exacly are we doing that offends you so? Lets see we overthrew a brutal regime in Iraq and are bringing stability to an extremely unstable region.
    Actually we replaced a brutal regime with a load of brutal factions, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of people dying in the process. If we were to leave now, things look set to degrade into civil war. So we will just have to keep pouring money into it indefinitely while our troops are being shot at and blown up. Like Mario said, Sadam had nothing to do with terrorism we invaded Iraq to disarm the weapons of mass destruction. As these never existed its a classic example of how to waste billions of dollars and thousands of lives acting on bad intelligence and ignoring the basic principles of law. Then theres Guantanamo another instance where the American government chose to defy the basic rules of law, in the face of which America's claim to stand for freedom is blatant hypocrisy.

    Oh wait, I think France is ........ed because they had a back door deal with Saddam that we cancelled as soon as we took over. So France was and still is supporting terrorism, count yourself lucky that all it cost you was your oil deal.
    What are you suggesting here? That America should go to war with France? An unbelievably deranged statement, do you really believe that America can take on the entire world single handedly? Surely Iran is of greater priority, since there is a far greater indication that they are working on weapons of mass destruction then Iraq, so naturally we should invade them too. Then theres Venezuela; they must be supporting terrorists. And north Korea; more terrorists. I think its time to get your gun out.
    Last edited by mike_g; 05-11-2008 at 10:10 AM.

  8. #38
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    What exacly are we doing that offends you so? Lets see we overthrew a brutal regime in Iraq and are bringing stability to an extremely unstable region.
    A brutal regime that nonetheless, was stable. What you did was remove all kinds of authority, essentially bringing chaos to an already troubled nation, at the expense of several thousand civilians, and soldiers. All of this, because of a suspicion, that Iraq might have been in possession of WOMD.

    But still, it is well known that the US itself has tonnes of ballistic missiles just laying around. How come you get to decide who can and who can't have WOMD? The POTUS is not Judge Dredd you know, stay out of other countries business, why did these people have to die, based on a suspicion? The US is living in fear, trying to control everything and everyone, and convincing their citizens that everyone else is the bad guys. Sometimes i wonder, who is it that is living under a suppressing regime? Who is it that is being meek, Abachler?
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  9. #39
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Wow, the plight of Myanmar made a quite speedy exit from this conversation.

  10. #40
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    A brutal regime that nonetheless, was stable. What you did was remove all kinds of authority, essentially bringing chaos to an already troubled nation, at the expense of several thousand civilians, and soldiers. All of this, because of a suspicion, that Iraq might have been in possession of WOMD.
    Excuse me, but the American citizen did nothing of the sort. One of the reasons Bush was *first* elected might have been because of a campaign promise. Stating that he "did not believe in nation building," the American people I think were under the impression that he had a more diplomatic foreign policy than "strike first." I wasn't permitted to vote at the time, but you're free to study the election.

    But still, it is well known that the US itself has tonnes of ballistic missiles just laying around.
    If it helps assuage your worries, Democratic candidates tend to slash the military budget and dismantle these. Clinton did it in the 90s, but he also made the mistake of putting through executive orders that ordered the CIA to stop recruiting. We reaped the crop of that decision, didn't we?

    Sure there is a smart way to demilitarize, but our government tends to ignore big problems and cut stupid corners. Sorry, can't do much about it. If you still want to accuse the average person of being a headcase (or use abachler as an excuse to whine), that is your perogative but frankly I think this is getting out of hand. Voters do not approve, and the only reason McCain turned into an electable candidate is due to the fact that the other house simply won't stop sabotaging itself. Delegates are finally starting to line up behind Obama as the presumptive nominee, but Hillary, despite being mathematically out of the nomination, is still clawing for every vote. The only thing that the Democrats seem to be talking about is each other instead of McCain, politics, and why it's smart not to vote for him. We'll see if anybody's dumb enough to elect that sleazeball.

    We should all be programming right about now.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    What exacly are we doing that offends you so? Lets see we overthrew a brutal regime in Iraq and are bringing stability to an extremely unstable region. Oh wait, I think France is ........ed because they had a back door deal with Saddam that we cancelled as soon as we took over. So France was and still is supporting terrorism, count yourself lucky that all it cost you was your oil deal.
    Hahahahahaha, we WHAT?

    We went into a soverign nation, took down the government that - while run by an evil man - provided stability to the region, and allowed three warring factions free reign on each other. THAT is what we've done in Iraq - none of this "overthrowing a brutal regime and are bringing stability to an unstable region" crap.

  12. #42
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    We'll see if anybody's dumb enough to elect that sleazeball.
    Speaking as an external observer, I'd say what seemed highly unlikely at first is now becoming a possible outcome. The democrats seem to have made a complete fool of themselves. And I'm pretty sure they will pay the price during the presidential campaign.

    As a democrat sympathizer, trust me when I say, despite having no links with US, there were times I was feeling ashamed. Particularly because I actively defend the democrats case among my friendships which includes many Republican sympathizers. Thankfully I trust the American voters have chosen wisely on this case, since Hillary campaign was by far the most damaging to the party. And it comes as no surprise that Obama is garnering a majority among the super delegates. And its not only because they have no choice now but support him. They do have the choice. But the people spoke loudly.

    The sleezeball will surely capitalize over the primaries. Hillary would have been a much easier target since her credibility is now a joke. Obama will be an harder target, especially because McCain will die to tell him of his skin color, but will not dare to.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #43
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    Wow, the plight of Myanmar made a quite speedy exit from this conversation.
    I don't think that was the purpose of this thread anyways. One look at the first post and you know where this thread is heading .

    none of this "overthrowing a brutal regime and are bringing stability to an unstable region" crap.
    US bashing is unwarranted IMO. Even though the region is unstable as of now, with a democratic process in place, there is hope that someday in the not so distant future, the Arab Middle-East will be a stable region. Look at Afghanistan now and compare it to what it was when the Taliban was overthrown.

    As for the brutality of the regime, I don't think that you and I who have been lucky enough never to experience it should comment on what is right and what is not.
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  14. #44
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    [Just a couple of comments.]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Meanwhile, Saddam was not a terrorist. In fact, Saddam was a sworn enemy of Al-Qaeda, being this a sunni movement. I'm surprised you still think as you were told to, instead of thinking for yourself. The fact Al-Qaeda and Saddam's regime were so far apart is something everyone always knew and part of the reason Saddam was armed and financed by the US for years and years, since it was the only one in the region facing the Sunni regime in Iran. I'm still surprised as the american public in general bought this one. In Europe almost no one did.
    Hamas in Iraq: Iran funds al-Qaeda

    Iraqi Perspectives Project Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents (Redacted)
    Abstract: Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist, and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some ways, a “de facto” link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the collapse of the regime.
    Saddam and al-Qaeda
    In conclusion, the Pentagon Papers clearly show that Saddam had direct ties to the EIJ. Saddam was both financing and training EIJ members from as far back as 1990. The support Saddam was providing was ongoing. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the EIJ merged with al-Qaeda in 1998. Therefore, Saddam was financing and training al-Qaeda.
    Other.

    [Resume argument, I enjoy the different perspectives.]
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    40. There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one works.*

  15. #45
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    I think this debate has gotten a bit out of hand. Bashing this or that country does nothing and you guys are talking about a war and about issues that occurred nearly half a century ago. I'm a very avid WW2 semi-historian and find many of the things said in here quite disturbing.

    Germany was doomed by the time USA entered the war when it was enduring its biggest flop in the whole war; Operation Barbarossa and the invasion of Russia.
    It is true that Hitler was defeated the moment he decided to attack Russia. On THAT Russian front yes he was defeated. But my grandfather has plenty of dead friends to prove that on the European front Hitler was far from defeated. It took a helluva lot to push Hitler back and saying the USA or the UK or any country who fought valiantly against the Nazi regime had it easy is quite honestly disrespectful and extremely ignorant and arrogant. Shameful at the least.

    Many countries contributed to the victories and eventual overall VE and VJ in WW2. My heart, my respect, and my thanks go to all the men in all the countries who gave the ultimate sacrifice.
    Whether a Brit gave his life or a Dutchmen or Russian or American or whoever...they all deserve the same honor and respect.

    On the same note, there are also plenty of other forgotten men on the other side of the war who served their country and gave their lives to fight for what they felt was right. None of those deaths should be minimized.

    I guess the point is many men from many nations fought for what they felt was right and stepped up to get the job done. Regardless of whether they were Allied or Axis they all had courage. Sorry but I have nothing but respect for that type of person. To squabble about things none of us here are experts on or have experienced personally is just immature. Let dead men rest.

    Now back to the topic....

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