Prayers to Burma

This is a discussion on Prayers to Burma within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Lithorien ...I'd like to apoligize for this gentleman, on behalf of the rest of us living in ...

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithorien View Post
    ...I'd like to apoligize for this gentleman, on behalf of the rest of us living in the United States.
    No need. Apologizing or accepting any apologies is bringing the discussion to a level that doesn't belong here; i.e. stereotypes. Anyone with a forehead knows not all Americans think like that and some Europeans do. It's all the same. I can as easily hear that nonsense from some European, Asian or African.

    What annoys me instead is that some people actually still thinks like that in our century. A clear sign we are still basically a bunch of apes fighting for a branch.

    Abachler argument is one of those - these constructions have a name actually. Wish I knew the right word - falsehoods hiding behind a hard to interpret logic that on the surface makes it look a truth.

    The words are these:
    Quote Originally Posted by abachler
    No government rules without the compliance of its people.
    And then goes on defending this point of view with such pearls as "Freedom comes from the barrel of a gun" and even "Political power is a measure of your willingness to kill those that oppose you.".

    First, I don't recognize in abachler an authority on these matters. The fact he leaves no room for discussion and uses his words as if they were absolute truths is the mark of the ignorant. A clear sign he has very little knowledge on tyrannies, how they form, why they form, and the historical aspects that may lead to the formation and perpetuation of a political regime and the subservience of the populations. Ultimately he should be ignored. However, because I love to argue... I'll argue.

    Forgetting any historic considerations that may had lead to the formation of a dictatorship, it's the main characteristic of such political regimes that they want themselves to perpetuate. The methods used are collectively called as Oppression. Oppression has the characteristic of making it hard for an organized resistance to be formed and become successful. But every single dictatorship meets resistance. There are always those who fight oppression. Eventually they will succeed. Sometimes with external help, sometimes not. Certainly with many defeats.

    As such, abachler idea that a dictatorship is a sign the population is weak, is completely false. There are historical, political, social and sometimes even economical reasons behind the formation of a dictatorship. Always! And once formed, resistance will follow suit. Because dictatorships use oppression as a means to stay in power, resistance is hard to organize, meets many setbacks and defeats, and along with terror and fear the regime instills will take a long time to succeed. But will succeed invariably. Always has.

    Then you have another problem with his logic. He ignores the historical reasons behind the formation of a dictatorship, we discussed that. But he also ignores its victims. By so boldly and cruelly assigning them the term "meek". I would like to see how meek abachler would feel with a whip on his back and torture on all his body after having been caught by the political police for being so brave and having to watch his family being tortured too. His death and that of his family would have no meaning. After all abachler was caught. He died and consequently failed. Meek? Of course not.

    Because then we will have to say the millions of Jews that died in the concentration camps were all weak and only got what they deserved for having not fight back. They inherited the grave, right? We would have to say the black slaves were weak and deserved being slaves for not fighting back. Speaking of which, blacks in US during the oppression were all weak and deserved being oppressed and having to go to black only places. Ghandi was weak and only got what he deserved. The millions of Russians that died to Stalin, the worst dictator of human history, were weak and a waste of space... etcetera, etcetera...

    Abachler argument is ridiculous and false. No nation in human history ever accepted oppression. No people in human history ever accepted oppression. Not all oppression was defeated at gun point.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-10-2008 at 03:11 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    You can thank the American attitude that the whole world doesnt speak German or Japanese. You may hate us now, but you thank us that you have that freedom. But of course the european mentaility has always been, what have you done for me lately. For a civilization [sic] that has such a logn history, europeans sure are short sighted.
    Oh please, i guess the entire continent of Europe are in an eternal debt to you guys then? Not to mention the fact that the US reacted way overdue in WW2, ultimately resulting in a lot of deaths that could've been avoided if you guys had taken responsibility a bit earlier...

    Whatever, keep your guns and your ignorance, you've already proven how well that works out for you guys over there, enjoy your economical depression, warmongers...
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  3. #18
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    The argument that USA saved Europe is as old as the war. And as ignorant.

    USA would have not succeeded if it wasn't for the fact it was allied with UK and the Soviet Union. The war in Europe was fought by these three along with the help of many other countries that provided essential forces. Without the French Resistance, for instance, D-Day would have never happened. Or it could have resulted in a sound defeat.

    Europe victory was not the doing of the Americans. It was the doing of the Americans, British, French, Dutch, Canadians, etc. In fact, if there is a country Europe owes much, that country is UK. And I never heard the British claiming any rights over it as much as I hear this crap from some americans.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #19
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    I'm half dutch, and tbh they dident do all that much for the war. Apparently the dutch army had like 13 people in it. The dutch are too cool for that stuff.

    From what I have heard the American businesses were having a great time at the start of the war. Was it ford that was selling the nazis vehicles? And IBM was supplying them with computers. Its only when Japan attacked that the government started to seriously re-evaluate the situation.

    And yes, 5 years was a bit late.
    Last edited by mike_g; 05-10-2008 at 05:20 PM.

  5. #20
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It was the doing of the Americans, British, French, Dutch, Canadians, etc. In fact, if there is a country Europe owes much, that country is UK.
    Not the UK, The commonwealth. Big difference. That way you're not ignoring countries like Australia or New Zealand.

  6. #21
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Most especially the pilots of the RAAF. Men like Sgt. Rawdon Middleton.
    And the many kiwis that fought and died in the British RAF and Navy.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #22
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Oh, you guys are just mad because you don't want what I say to be right, but you know deep down that it is, and that sucks, but it's reality. If there was a better more efficient answer than violence, then nature would have evolved to use that method instead of violence. Sure, there are other methods that we as humans employ, but there does come a point beyond which negotiations are pointless. Some people simply will not respond to civilized discourse. Some times the stakes are such that any compromise is simply unacceptable. Try to compromise with a rapist, there is simply no middle ground that is acceptable to both parties. What, are you going to let him stick it in just a few times and in exchange he agrees to not go all the way? (Sorry to be so graphicaly blunt). Its the same in Burma. The people would rather live in oppression than do what it takes to remove the government from power. The government isn't going to just lay down their weapons and leave, why should they, they have a passive populace that won't fight back.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    efficient != better

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    Oh please, i guess the entire continent of Europe are in an eternal debt to you guys then? Not to mention the fact that the US reacted way overdue in WW2, ultimately resulting in a lot of deaths that could've been avoided if you guys had taken responsibility a bit earlier...
    Now hold on a second. Isn't America being villianized now for being involved in a war it has "no business being in"? And you wanted them landing on the shores of France in the 1930s?

    Whatever.

    Whatever, keep your guns and your ignorance, you've already proven how well that works out for you guys over there, enjoy your economical depression, warmongers...
    Depression? Who's spreading myths and untruths now?

    I partially agree with abachler, and partially disagree. I just don't think he understands how brutal the oppression is that these people live under. I will not, however, partake in a US-bashing bloodlust by ignorant people such as yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    The argument that USA saved Europe is as old as the war. And as ignorant.

    USA would have not succeeded if it wasn't for the fact it was allied with UK and the Soviet Union. The war in Europe was fought by these three along with the help of many other countries that provided essential forces. Without the French Resistance, for instance, D-Day would have never happened. Or it could have resulted in a sound defeat.
    .
    And without the US invasion, the French resistance would have been crushed. Yes, it was a victory for the Allies, but if the US didn't get involved, you would be a subject of the 3rd Reich.

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    >> If there was a better more efficient answer than violence, then nature would have evolved to
    >> use that method instead of violence.

    I think you just explained why you are wrong. It is obvious that humans have evolved to use less violence than they have in the past. Humans are also obviously still evolving (your opinions are case in point that there is a long way to go).

    The most powerful governments in the world are the ones based on cooperation of the people being governed, not the ones that use violence to achieve their power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    Now hold on a second. Isn't America being villianized now for being involved in a war it has "no business being in"? And you wanted them landing on the shores of France in the 1930s?

    Whatever.
    I'm not villianizing anyone, it was Abachler who started out with a glorious tale about how the US saved us, and that somehow compensates for all the stuff you guys are doing now..

    Depression? Who's spreading myths and untruths now?

    I partially agree with abachler, and partially disagree. I just don't think he understands how brutal the oppression is that these people live under. I will not, however, partake in a US-bashing bloodlust by ignorant people such as yourself.
    Excuse me, i may have gotten a bit carried away, i tend to do that when people say stuff like:

    Freedom comes from the barrel of a gun.
    Alot of good stuff has originated in the US, so has alot of bad stuff, and it's human nature to make a big deal out of the bad stuff. I apologize for sounding overly critical..
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  13. #28
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    And without the US invasion, the French resistance would have been crushed. Yes, it was a victory for the Allies, but if the US didn't get involved, you would be a subject of the 3rd Reich.
    It was not a US invasion. It was an ally evasion. USA contributed with exactly half the forces. For years too, the French Resistance was supported by the British and the British alone. Not the Americans. They would have been dead by the time America made it into the war. More, the common knowledge is that without the allies commitment in Europe, it would be Russian, not German we would be "talking" today. The Soviet Union forces were taking the blunt of the German forces and still making huge progresses towards Berlin. While arguable, there is very little doubt in the mind of many historians Stalin would have reached as far as France. The catalyst behind Operation Overlord, and what made this type of operation possible, was exactly Russia involvement in the East.

    Many, many things, people and events contributed for the success of the Allied campaign. Even Germany did! The fact german leaders where pickering among themselves, the fact Hitler didn't recognize Rommel defense strategy in Normandy, the fact Hitler dared to remove Rundstedt from his command. The 3rd Reich was doomed on any front simply because it's leadership model that so many successes had in the past was exhausted and since the bombing in Hitler's bunker, it became increasingly centered on Hitler. In fact one can say with some degree of accuracy that one has to thank Stauffenberg and the remaining conspiracy members. Despite the failed attempt, it completely shaped the rest of the war in Europe since Hitler never recovered from it and became increasingly paranoid, ill, and calling to himself the command of some of the most important forces in Europe. For which he was obviously not qualified to command.

    Acknowledging USA involvement and having a collective feeling of gratitude towards all countries, men, and women, involved is one thing. To hear Europe has a debt of gratitude to America is another completely different thing. I, and many Europeans don't recognize such debt. I certainly don't agree Germany would have won the war. Germany was doomed by the time USA entered the war when it was enduring its biggest flop in the whole war; Operation Barbarossa and the invasion of Russia. This was what turned the tide in Europe. Germany would never recover from the loses. The amount of men and material lost in the largest scale military operation in human history was never going to be replaced.

    So yes, I thank USA participation. And that of everyone involved. I don't however owe USA anything that I wouldn't owe any other country involved. Some even more.

    EDIT: I don't however agree with the argument USA was looking at his own feet during the early years of the war. Despite private enterprising on behalf of some that actually sympathized with the 3rd Reich (which I must remind everyone, was also happening a little all over Europe, UK included), the government and population in general were actively against Germany belligerence. During the early years and throughout the whole period USA was not directly involved in the war, several measures where taken by the two USA governments that allowed some level of participation; most notably the Lend-Lease Program and the Mutual Board of Defense. For Churchill this was manifestly very little since he wanted a formal declaration of war on Germany. But he also knew Roosevelt was facing three main problems;

    1 - There were two faction inside his own government and society in general. The Interventionists and the Isolationists. Without Japan "help", this political impasse would have been very hard to solve.
    2 - Most of USA forces where deployed in the West and USA lacked a strong navy capable of handling a long distant war in the Atlantic.
    3 - USA had been neglecting his military power for decades. It was simply not ready to be an active player in the war. The fact point 1 was limiting Roosevelt (who was an Interventionist) ability to pass more important measures in Congress, wasn't helping the effort to arm the country.

    Churchill knew all this. And when some of his advisers actively protested against USA, he would get angry and scold them. The Air Superiority campaign lead by the 3rd Reich would invariably draw USA into the war even if Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor. As soon as one German troop set foot in English soil, USA would be forced to the war. Japan just made it happen sooner.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-11-2008 at 07:34 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #29
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    If you REALLY want to change things you have to kill the people that oppose you
    And that is the exact reason I would never elect you as my leader. That goes in direct opposition to everything I believe, and you are completely wrong.
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  15. #30
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    I'm not villianizing anyone, it was Abachler who started out with a glorious tale about how the US saved us, and that somehow compensates for all the stuff you guys are doing now..
    What exacly are we doing that offends you so? Lets see we overthrew a brutal regime in Iraq and are bringing stability to an extremely unstable region. Oh wait, I think France is ........ed because they had a back door deal with Saddam that we cancelled as soon as we took over. So France was and still is supporting terrorism, count yourself lucky that all it cost you was your oil deal.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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