Linux vs Windows

This is a discussion on Linux vs Windows within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Windows command line is derived from DOS, which is a based on UNIX, MS just never took it any further....

  1. #76
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Windows command line is derived from DOS, which is a based on UNIX, MS just never took it any further.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  2. #77
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    Wow Elysia....I have noticed that in almost every post on this thread you have expressed a dislike for command lines. Why? As a programmer you should face the fact that sometimes a command line is simply way more powerful than a GUI ever can be (not in all situations, but in many situations).
    Because mostly, I think, a GUI is click and point. It's easy if the GUI is designed properly and does not usually require a lot of prehand knowledge and is a lot simpler to use!
    I don't like rooting through manuals and stuff only to find how to use the command lines and put a thousand works onto the command line to perform some stuff.

    Now, easy things that's just say one or two arguments, I can do, but not more complex stuff. Plus it's far easier to remember the name of a program and how to navigate within it than remember the options in command lines.

    It is true that Linux users do tend to use the command line a bit more, but that does not mean you have to use the command line. Most of the common Linux distributions today you could very easily run using only GUI if you really wanted to.
    People keep saying it, but I don't see it. There are things that are still very much command line.
    RPM packages was installed via command line.
    Drivers had to be installed via command line.
    Even wine has to run from command line.
    And the config for OSS? Config files. Again, command line.

    Anyways, tell me how and how long it would take you to do that in a GUI. What did I just do up there? I concatenated 3 server logs into one big file, the I threw out everything except for whatever occurred in Jan and Feb of 2008 and put that stuff in a new log file. After that I did searches on a specific IP address and also a specific table name in our MySQL tables to see if they came up in the server logs at all. By doing this, and some other techniques as well, I was able to quickly and easily find out exactly when, where, and how the hacker had gained access to our servers.
    In the files field, click add, select the three files.
    Then select filter, start and end date.
    Select output file.
    Click process.
    Searching through a database isn't difficult either. Phpmyadmin can do it, and it's a GUI.
    It isn't more difficult than writing command lines and can be just as fast or faster, depending on how fast you type.

    My point is: the command line is incredibly powerful and incredibly useful. Please do not discount the usefulness of the command line. If you are "afraid" of the command line that is your own fault, and honestly I think to be considered a real "tech savvy" person and "computer programmer", you should be proficient with the use of the command line.
    I don't doubt their usefulness. I'm aware of it very much, but I don't like them. Point click and pretty stuff is what I like.

    It saddens me that Window's command line sucks so much.
    And it saddens me that some people put more emphasis on CLI than GUI.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  3. #78
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    My comments on bold.

    [quote=Elysia;738326]
    People keep saying it, but I don't see it. There are things that are still very much command line.
    RPM packages was installed via command line. !NO.
    Drivers had to be installed via command line. !NO
    Even wine has to run from command line. !NO
    And the config for OSS? Config files. Again, command line. !NO
    [quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    In the files field, click add, select the three files.
    Then select filter, start and end date.
    Select output file.
    Click process.
    Sorry? What files field, what filter? What's this software? And what about the grep usage? You didn't mention that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Searching through a database isn't difficult either. Phpmyadmin can do it, and it's a GUI.
    PHPMyAdmin actually is one hell of a good example. It does its job as to provide a web frontend to MYSQL, but being web-based is slow. Furthermore, you cannot search through a database with php admin without writting a select statement. That is far more slower than with a CLI like putty for instance, since the time it takes you to load the whole phpmyadmin, navigate to the SQL query page and insert the SQL statement(s), I'm already sending back the results by email and this with only three hits of the enter key.

    Conversely I used to use MySQL Maestro before moving to Linux. Did you know what I used it for? Complex queries because of the Query Builder facility. So there you go an example where a GUI clearly makes your life easier. When imagery is important. For everything else I was very much used to mysql CLI interface. Even on windows.

    I don't doubt their usefulness. I'm aware of it very much, but I don't like them. Point click and pretty stuff is what I like.
    Fair enough. But then don't dismiss them. Simply humbly accept the fact it's your preference and that you know very little of CLIs to have an opinion about them.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #79
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Mario, you sound like a born again linux fanboy. You wave dismissively at any issue anyone has with linux and say ' well you just don't know'. The fact is Linux is not the uber Windows killer the fanboy's claim. It has serious useability issues that the linux community simply has not addressed. The average user doesnt want to write their own drivers or edit the source code or grep anything. They want to play games, email pictures to grandma, and copy files, period. Professional developers are not going to spend money targetting an OS that their users do not use, that would be economic suicide. Linux fans keep saying if developers would support it the users would follow, but whats our incentive for investing billions collectively to make such a move? Money doesnt grow on trees, and there is never enough of it, so what there is will follow the path of greatest profit.

    Here's an idea, instead of crybabying about why peope use iwndows instead of linux, how about you make linux mroe like windows for developers. Implement a true API, not some hacky set of libraries. Make the GUI EXACTLY like windows without addign any 'special' features that te author thinks is soem kind of improvement. Get a project going that sticks with a distro for more than 2 or 3 years before abandoning it because they all got bored or whatever.
    Last edited by abachler; 04-04-2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason: More rantign and raving
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  5. #80
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    The average user doesnt want to write their own drivers or edit the source code or grep anything. They want to play games, email pictures to grandma, and copy files, period.
    In my usage of Linux/Unix operating systems, I have never had to go in an edit the source code. The option is there, however, if you want to. "grepping" things is a nice functionality that, once again, is present if the user wants to use it. You dont have to use it if you don't want to. Using Linux I have been perfectly able to play games, email pictures, copy files, and do other regular tasks perfectly fine without any complications.

    In the files field, click add, select the three files.
    Then select filter, start and end date.
    Select output file.
    Click process.
    I echo exactly what Mario F. said. What software are you using to do this? Windows definitely doesn't do it natively.

    Searching through a database isn't difficult either. Phpmyadmin can do it, and it's a GUI.
    Phpmyadmin can search through databases, but did I ever say that I was searching through a database? NO! I said that I was searching server logs for instances where a hacker made an SQL query over an HTTP request, thereby accessing our databases. If I want to search our databases then yes, I can use phpmyadmin, webmin, or the command line, but that is not what I was doing now was it?
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  6. #81
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Mario, you sound like a born again linux fanboy. You wave dismissively at any issue anyone has with linux and say ' well you just don't know'.
    No. I believe I was very clear on one of my earlier posts. I still think Windows XP and Windows 2000 are two great operating systems. And I still have XP on my machine. Also, on that post you reply to I give one example of why a GUI can also be useful.

    What I can't see is someone dismissing a CLI as a powerful tool without stepping in and trying to show why it can be a powerful tool. If you see that as being Linux fanboy you'd better go back to ignoring me. You'll get a lot of that.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #82
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    Using Linux I have been perfectly able to play games,
    Some games perhaps, btu not most games, and not any games you buy at walmart. Remember the average user has teh walmart mentality, thats what you need to overcome. I think linux may eventually be on its way out once ReactOS deploys.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  8. #83
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Ok. We are now talking about the average user.
    This is an hint for me to step out of this thread.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #84
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    you'd better go back to ignoring me. You'll get a lot of that.
    Never stopped. Just elected to view a few of your posts in this thread.
    Last edited by abachler; 04-04-2008 at 12:00 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  10. #85
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    My comments on bold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    People keep saying it, but I don't see it. There are things that are still very much command line.
    RPM packages was installed via command line. !NO.
    Drivers had to be installed via command line. !NO
    Even wine has to run from command line. !NO
    And the config for OSS? Config files. Again, command line. !NO
    Yes to all of that. That's exactly what I had to do.
    I even had to get the kernel source and have the installer compile it, and heck, even specify the path manually I think. Not what I call very user friendly.
    Regardless if you say it must be done or not, the proof that I had to do it shows that either there's lack of information or lack of options in the distro or something else. Not user friendly. Linux has its own little devils that haunts it, just as Windows. It's not perfect. Nor is Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Sorry? What files field, what filter? What's this software? And what about the grep usage? You didn't mention that.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    I echo exactly what Mario F. said. What software are you using to do this? Windows definitely doesn't do it natively.
    No, there's no native tool, but did I say there was? You were complaining about how it couldn't be done in GUI if I'm not mistaken. Those simple steps would show it's indeed possible and possibly faster, as well.

    PHPMyAdmin actually is one hell of a good example. It does its job as to provide a web frontend to MYSQL, but being web-based is slow. Furthermore, you cannot search through a database with php admin without writting a select statement. That is far more slower than with a CLI like putty for instance, since the time it takes you to load the whole phpmyadmin, navigate to the SQL query page and insert the SQL statement(s), I'm already sending back the results by email and this with only three hits of the enter key.
    It's slow because it's a web interface. Does it have to be? No! It can just as well be an application.
    And although I can't check now (no access to any phpmyadmin), I'm sure that phpymadmin allowed searches without typing an entire query. If you have to do that, surely it's an old version. It's a little more flexible than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    Phpmyadmin can search through databases, but did I ever say that I was searching through a database? NO! I said that I was searching server logs for instances where a hacker made an SQL query over an HTTP request, thereby accessing our databases. If I want to search our databases then yes, I can use phpmyadmin, webmin, or the command line, but that is not what I was doing now was it?
    The same thing. Databases, files... they can be searched just as well.

    Fair enough. But then don't dismiss them. Simply humbly accept the fact it's your preference and that you know very little of CLIs to have an opinion about them.
    I know enough. I'm not dumb. I have used plenty of them. On Windows, of course. Copy, chkdsk, cd, and common commands, including calling specific audio encoding utilities via command line. And I know of several CLI software that I consider a pain to use and use graphical frontends for.
    I don't like them and it's my opinion based on my experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #86
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler
    The fact is Linux is not the uber Windows killer the fanboy's claim. It has serious useability issues that the linux community simply has not addressed. The average user doesnt want to write their own drivers or edit the source code or grep anything. They want to play games, email pictures to grandma, and copy files, period. Professional developers are not going to spend money targetting an OS that their users do not use, that would be economic suicide. Linux fans keep saying if developers would support it the users would follow, but whats our incentive for investing billions collectively to make such a move? Money doesnt grow on trees, and there is never enough of it, so what there is will follow the path of greatest profit.
    Quote Originally Posted by abachler
    Some games perhaps, btu not most games, and not any games you buy at walmart. Remember the average user has teh walmart mentality, thats what you need to overcome.
    That is a chicken and egg scenario. You are saying:
    1. Linux is not usable because it lacks software for desktop end users that are produced by professional developers and sold at Wal Mart.
    2. Professional developers will not develop software targeted for Linux users to sell at Wal Mart because Linux is not usable. See #1.

    Consequently, any reasonable OS can be a "Windows killer" if professional developers suddenly started targeting it en masse to write software that is sold on Wal Mart (and also greatly reduced their supply of Windows software). But this is unlikely to happen since Microsoft has a near monopoly on the desktop OS market, whereas these professional developers have near perfect competition when it comes to producing their software.
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  12. #87
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    No, there's no native tool, but did I say there was? You were complaining about how it couldn't be done in GUI if I'm not mistaken. Those simple steps would show it's indeed possible and possibly faster, as well.
    This is no way of proving a point Elysia. Because I could then say to you that I can run the entire operation DavidP exemplified by simply typing '.bsearch' on the command line.

    I didn't see as useful, or fair to you, to talk about bash scripts that further enhance the Linux CLI usability. So give us a break and don't try to provide an example with software that doesn't exist.

    It's slow because it's a web interface. Does it have to be? No! It can just as well be an application.
    As I didn't tell you yet I used GUI database interfaces almost all my life even from the DOS days with DBASE. And I have been using CLI interfaces too. Most of my database management is done on a CLI. Most of my queries on a GUI. Queries to databases are better done in a GUI interface for several reasons as I believe I told you already. But...

    - They can be as fast on a CLI depending on what one wants
    - Linux (which you still call CLI based) offers plenty of database GUI interfaces.

    And although I can't check now (no access to any phpmyadmin), I'm sure that phpymadmin allowed searches without typing an entire query.
    No. It does not. Unless you are speaking of selects with maybe a like and no order by as you can do on the Search tab. But then we have the same problem... this is as fast as on the mysql CLI "select * from table where field like '%whatever%'".

    I know enough. I'm not dumb. I have used plenty of them. On Windows, of course. Copy, chkdsk, cd, and common commands, including calling specific audio encoding utilities via command line. And I know of several CLI software that I consider a pain to use and use graphical frontends for.
    I don't like them and it's my opinion based on my experiences.

    Whatever you say. I'm tired of this conversation.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #88
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    That is a chicken and egg scenario. You are saying:
    1. Linux is not usable because it lacks software for desktop end users that are produced by professional developers and sold at Wal Mart.
    2. Professional developers will not develop software targeted for Linux users to sell at Wal Mart because Linux is not usable. See #1.

    Consequently, any reasonable OS can be a "Windows killer" if professional developers suddenly started targeting it en masse to write software that is sold on Wal Mart (and also greatly reduced their supply of Windows software). But this is unlikely to happen since Microsoft has a near monopoly on the desktop OS market, whereas these professional developers have near perfect competition when it comes to producing their software.
    More or less, yes.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  14. #89
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    This is no way of proving a point Elysia. Because I could then say to you that I can run the entire operation DavidP exemplified by simply typing '.bsearch' on the command line.

    I didn't see as useful, or fair to you, to talk about bash scripts that further enhance the Linux CLI usability. So give us a break and don't try to provide an example with software that doesn't exist.
    Then don't talk as if GUI can't do the same thing. You seem all pro-CLI, so you seem to be forgetting what a GUI can do.


    But as you say... whatever. It's not like this is going anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #90
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    All this thread needs to be complete is for someone to compare someone else to the nazi's.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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