Linux vs Windows

This is a discussion on Linux vs Windows within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; This is stupid. They're 2 completely different things that have a similar role. You could twist the argument in your ...

  1. #61
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    This is stupid. They're 2 completely different things that have a similar role. You could twist the argument in your favor either way. One could argue that Linux is so much more compatible than Windows because it runs on a vast majority of architectures.

    Not using Linux because you think Windows does a few things better isn't a good enough reason. No one is stopping you from running Windows and Linux. And I'm sure no one would argue that having a portable program, that runs on both is worse than just having it run on Windows.

    My point is, don't expect Visual Studio on Linux. That doesn't even make sense... And defiantly don't try to move to Linux running 99% of your programs under wine. For me I develop under Linux (without an IDE), use makefiles to compile, and use a cross-compiler to build the Windows version. Then when I make a release, I compile it under Windows.

    That's my opinion.
    Last edited by zacs7; 04-03-2008 at 04:08 PM.

  2. #62
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    The point being, that I hate command lines and much of what I've come to expect, see and experience is just command lines.
    That is why Linux scared me away.
    Again, it's just an opinion and the Linux developers are not to blame for it.
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  3. #63
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Windows is better than linux because Windows runs on computers and linux runs on consoles.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #64
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    Good news for Elysia, I have to repeat it though, said it already, instead of MSVS there is Eclipse. E C L I P S E ! ! !
    Use this, and don't ask for MSVS running on Linux.
    GUIs are good for average users who need a quick and easy way to do stuff (it can't be generalized though, and Linux have excellent GUIs as well, moot point).
    Command line (means automated scripts, mostly) is the weapon of the administrators and power users.
    We can program our work using command line tools, which is still possible with GUIs but more flexible using command line.

    And now think about it, it was just a thought, and idea, and now Linux is much improved. If there are some things that the gurus here hesitate to accept.
    Then come ahead change it, it's open for all. So show your guts. You should love this.
    But most of us would only beat the air like such and such company does such and such blah blah.

    And by the way Mac OWES everything means they have such a bad habit of controlling everything.
    I have not heard the MacOS CDs that can be installed on my PC. They have their own HW, own SW, own formats, own blah blah.

    Almost 3-4 years from now when I was in my school, I just got Linux, a live bootable CD, that came with a magazine, LinuxForYou.
    I had no internet, but I was able to learn (whatever I could, and it was fun) by running the OS it self.
    They have build in infos AKA man pages and info pages. They were quite interesting to learn and explore.
    Now the Linux world is obviously much improved. But the point is its not as hard as most us would want to believe.

    Now the bad thing is, commercial vendors don't support them much, and most of the stuff is done using hacking, mostly reverse engineering the driver
    code, they got the guts, I must say.
    Last edited by manav; 04-03-2008 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #65
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    > Good news for Elysia, I have to repeat it though, said it already, instead of MSVS there is Eclipse.
    Eclipse is horrible IMO.

    KDevelop is good, except I tend not to use it since I use Gnome. In general, it's a lot faster to use the terminal than to go around clicking everywhere.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    Eclipse is horrible IMO.
    KDevelop is good, except I tend not to use it since I use Gnome. In general, it's a lot faster to use the terminal than to go around clicking everywhere.
    Just not want to prove you wrong, may be you don't have good experiences with Eclipse.
    But may be I also have only limited good experiences with it and so may be not exactly right.
    But we use Eclipse for our project here. But we develop in Java. SWT. GWT. Hibernate. etc. And Eclipse makes it lightening fast to develop.
    Only 2 persons were able to develop a product as big as groove, and more powerful. And obviously more portable. Under a year.

    Now even GUIs have there plus points. For example in IDE you type a few words and can see all the info about the possible completions, other info etc.
    Such things can't be done in command line. And not to mention things impossible on command line, like 3D Graphics in a real world like presence
    (just kidding) haha.

    But then command line works as a programming language. Very natural for programmers.

    EDIT:
    This is just a Linux vs Windows thread. And I actually wish you try Linux even with Windows installed.
    This is definitely not an argument about CUI and GUI. Moot point.
    Linux has very powerful CUI. And very beautiful GUI. So moot point.
    Last edited by manav; 04-04-2008 at 12:08 AM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Windows is better than linux because Windows runs on computers and linux runs on consoles.
    What OS do you think the Xbox uses? It's certainly not Linux....
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  8. #68
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manav View Post
    [...]

    We can program our work using command line tools, which is still possible with GUIs but more flexible using command line.

    And now think about it, it was just a thought, and idea, and now Linux is much improved. If there are some things that the gurus here hesitate to accept.
    Then come ahead change it, it's open for all. So show your guts. You should love this.
    But most of us would only beat the air like such and such company does such and such blah blah.

    And by the way Mac OWES everything means they have such a bad habit of controlling everything.
    I have not heard the MacOS CDs that can be installed on my PC. They have their own HW, own SW, own formats, own blah blah.

    [...]

    Now the bad thing is, commercial vendors don't support them much, and most of the stuff is done using hacking, mostly reverse engineering the driver
    code, they got the guts, I must say.
    I believe you mean "Mac Owns" (this, by the way, is almost entirely the influence of Steve Jobs as he works to harden the steel in the resolve of the people involved in his own corporate culture). I'm all for a dose of anti-corporatism, but when it comes in the form of you should be supporting this or programming something to address problems X and Y, it really bugs me. Elysia's comments may be full of hot air, but that doesn't mean that we should be bossing him around. Free as in speech or free as in beer, Elysia has the freedom to choose when and where he contributes via open source.

    To me, Elysia seems to repeatedly break a personal tenet of mine, liking to talk and express opinions about things where he has little knowledge or experience. We should be treating them as matters of opinion and demonstrating where those opinions are wrong rather than alienating Elysia.

    There are perfectly acceptable arguments against open source after all just as there are arguments against closed source, whether or not Elysia addresses them. IMHO, certain arguments for both sides come down to trustworthiness and reliability; for example, an open source encryption algorithm may be more trustworthy and reliable than a closed one if it's been well-tested. But closed source applications can sometimes be more reliable (venue to report problems and get them fixed) and more trustworthy depending on what it does and the vendor's image. Not to mention that businesses most always will want to rely on resource markets. If the software itself is viewed as a resource, then industries will seek to make deals and reward producers. The thread has gotten the initial response it deserved.

    Thank you for your interest in open source software.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 04-04-2008 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Emphasis: Now with color!

  9. #69
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    May be such issues always result in fruitless debates.
    But I wish to see 1000 posts to this thread before I die (oops, not at all, kidding).

    My problem is, I got the net connection, the company guy came, with all the knowledge to set my connection up in a few minutes without
    me having to worry about a thing. But he knew nothing about Linux. I had to install XP first. Also their tools were XP only.
    Same situation with my bro. He got a GSM mobile. And all the software that came bundled was for XP only.
    So at home I have XP only. And since I don't do coding etc at home. I have not installed Linux as yet.

    This is the only sad part about Linux. Commercial organizations ignore it.

  10. #70
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    This is the only sad part about Linux. Commercial organizations ignore it.
    Sure, it's subscribing to the "you get what you pay for" adage. If hardware or software vendors felt like airing all their issues with Slackware (to name one distro) or some UNIX variety on some message board, then we wouldn't be having much of a problem with this at all. You shouldn't expect hardware companies to routinely maintain drivers for an OS that's built for free. That means that the people who got the hardware to work (device drivers) won't be owed as much as they should. There's no deal to be made, really. So reverse engineering in the case you brought up was a necessary step. The open source community, in my opinion, isn't asking to be supported by corporate monsters. That's the whole point of it being open. And it works anyway. That's what makes it beautiful.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 04-04-2008 at 12:53 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    You shouldn't expect hardware companies to routinely maintain drivers for an OS that's built for free.
    One point here, the hardware vendors usually give drivers for free, available for download on the Net.
    They may have to pay big money to MS like OS companies. But for Linux they don't have to pay anything.
    And it will be generally good for the HW vendors if they some how help Linux developers in driver writing.
    HW will earn for HW that they sell. SW for their HW is mostly there to make sure their HW runs. And to make
    their HW more pervasive they should help the driver writers.

  12. #72
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manav View Post
    One point here, the hardware vendors usually give drivers for free, available for download on the Net.
    They may have to pay big money to MS like OS companies. But for Linux they don't have to pay anything.
    And it will be generally good for the HW vendors if they some how help Linux developers in driver writing.
    HW will earn for HW that they sell. SW for their HW is mostly there to make sure their HW runs. And to make
    their HW more pervasive they should help the driver writers.
    Point taken, but the market is so slanted I'm not really sure how their income breaks down. I'm fairly certain that key markets like Apple and Microsoft have to pay-in to give hardware companies the incentive to make those drivers. Asking something for nothing doesn't fly unless you rule the fiefdom (Microsoft), and even then hardware companies stand up and call foul on occassion (Vista's support woes). Some hardware drivers simply disappear because the OS is too old. I have a great example in the back of my mind: my dad bought an Nvidia graphics card, and he had problems finding the driver for Windows ME (even though the card has driver(s) for XP and 2000) so it would work with the OS he was forced to use. (My dad is currently incarcerated in something like a mental institution, really TMI here.) Hardware companies have a right to do that sort of thing, so it stands to reason they aren't going to do or shouldn't be asked to do things out of the kindness of their hearts.

    America really fell down when it allowed Microsoft and Apple to become the Republicans and Democrats of information technology. For me the real solution is more business, let capitalism work as it should. Linux may have it's day in America if the people rebel against the corporatism that rules them ever again (like the movement that died down after the Great Depression), but I have to go back to my original point: Linux is not asking to be supported by corporations.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 04-04-2008 at 02:02 AM.

  13. #73
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    This is the only sad part about Linux. Commercial organizations ignore it.
    I think that that is an exaggeration. Consider this recent article on Who Writes Linux and Who Supports It:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Linux Foundation
    More than 70 percent of total contributions to the kernel come from developers working at a range of companies including IBM, Intel, The Linux Foundation, MIPS Technology, MontaVista, Movial, NetApp, Novell and Red Hat. These companies, and many others, find that by improving the kernel they have a competitive edge in their markets.
    Of course, this is only about kernel development, so it says nothing about software development targeted for desktop end users (e.g., for company workstations rather than their server backends).
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  14. #74
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    The point being, that I hate command lines and much of what I've come to expect, see and experience is just command lines.
    That is why Linux scared me away.
    Again, it's just an opinion and the Linux developers are not to blame for it.
    Wow Elysia....I have noticed that in almost every post on this thread you have expressed a dislike for command lines. Why? As a programmer you should face the fact that sometimes a command line is simply way more powerful than a GUI ever can be (not in all situations, but in many situations).

    It is true that Linux users do tend to use the command line a bit more, but that does not mean you have to use the command line. Most of the common Linux distributions today you could very easily run using only GUI if you really wanted to.

    But why do you hate the command line? Why does it disgust you so much? It really seriously shouldn't. You should not be completely dependent on a GUI in order to get the job done.

    Now, to prove my point, let's take an example from a real situation which happened to me at work:

    A few months ago we had a hacker break into our servers. Being one of the 3 programmers/sys admins here at work, it was my job to find out how the hacker was getting in and then block him. This job entailed going through our server log files to find out where he had hacked in, at what time, what IP addresses he had used, and what requests he had made.

    We have several different log files, but I wanted to easily search through them and then create separate files that I could view more easily to see what was going on, so I did stuff like this:

    $ cat accessLog >> master_log
    $ cat speechesLog >> master_log
    $ cat magazineLog >> master_log
    $ grep -E "/Jan/08|/Feb/08" master_log > log_jan_feb_08
    $ grep "194.143.136.253" log_jan_feb_08 > ip_log
    $ grep "sp_admin" log_jan_feb_08 > mysql_log
    (Note that that is just a small example of stuff I did...some of the more basic stuff actually)

    Anyways, tell me how and how long it would take you to do that in a GUI. What did I just do up there? I concatenated 3 server logs into one big file, the I threw out everything except for whatever occurred in Jan and Feb of 2008 and put that stuff in a new log file. After that I did searches on a specific IP address and also a specific table name in our MySQL tables to see if they came up in the server logs at all. By doing this, and some other techniques as well, I was able to quickly and easily find out exactly when, where, and how the hacker had gained access to our servers.

    Now....how would you concatenate files like that in a GUI? Honestly I don't know how.
    How would you pair down the log file and do searches on it that easily? There might be some GUI program that does it....but why bother? I did it in 30 seconds myself on the command line.

    My point is: the command line is incredibly powerful and incredibly useful. Please do not discount the usefulness of the command line. If you are "afraid" of the command line that is your own fault, and honestly I think to be considered a real "tech savvy" person and "computer programmer", you should be proficient with the use of the command line.

    It saddens me that Window's command line sucks so much.
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  15. #75
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    after doing a unix programming course it's quite a powerful tool, just not so much on windows. If I want to trouble shoot windows say change the boot loader it's much easier than in unix, but if Iwant to do any sort of list processing, the command line is easier, for unformatted files of course. But I rarely need to so I don't stress it, but It is a good tool, and it's all people had back in the day.

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