PC or Console gamers, what are you playing?

This is a discussion on PC or Console gamers, what are you playing? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I like a good FPS, but so many of them lack depth (well, as much depth as an FPS can ...

  1. #61
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    I like a good FPS, but so many of them lack depth (well, as much depth as an FPS can have anyway). I like lots of guns, but not if the only difference between them is the graphic and how much damage they do. I like when they actually take different tacics to use. 5 Different pistols, 4 sniper rifles, 6 machine guns, 2 grenade launchers and 3 pointy sticks Dont make 20 different weapons, just 5 with different dmg levels (even if one shoots flaming pokemon eyeballs).
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  2. #62
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    So say, is Metroid Prime and FPS or FPA, do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  3. #63
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    No, I mainly say it because there's just no options to select.
    You can't choose the attitude of your character.
    If you choose to be bad, you can kill people you shouldn't and they'll never revive.
    Oblivion limits you a lot in these things.
    And I don't really feel like it's an RPG either... it feels more like an adventure.
    What would you call Final Fantasy then? You have absolutely no control on your character's personality in those games... does that make them a turn-based adventurer? Personally, I've found Oblivion to offer a great amount of freedom in comparison to other RPGs. What about Pokemon?

    "Can I enter this city?"
    "Umm... no. You have to give me tea first."
    "Oh... well please, can you take this tea?"
    "Umm... no, I need the other tea."
    "...but I need the magical flute to get that tea."
    "Yes..."
    "... and I need to beat Clarence to get the magi..."
    "Just get the stupid badge and come back..."

    The difference between a "Role Playing Game" and an "Aventurer" is your limits as to how you can develop you character. In the Legend of Zelda series, you have no options to develop your character... you just run around the world and get every item and skill one by one until you have them all and can beat the final boss. You can't choose to develop magic over strength or speechcraft over stealth... those are characteriscs of an RPG. It's not so much about playing a role as it is with developing a role.
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 04-02-2008 at 09:10 AM.
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  4. #64
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    So say, is Metroid Prime and FPS or FPA, do you think?
    Never played it. But as for Zelda, the first one is clearly an arcade even though everyone today like to label it as RPG. It wasn't so back then.

    RPGs can be seen in different ways these days. Oblivion is clearly an RPG. They just evolved from the previous Dungeon Master style, into Eye of the Beholder, later Baldur's Gate and now Morrowing and Oblivion types. I happen to prefer the older ones.

    As for Adventure games... well, these ones were a style of its own. The point and click puzzle solver type of games you've seen on Lands of Lore and Monkey Island, for instance that had as their mother the text adventure games (A Mind Forever Voyaging, to name the quintessential one). Later Myst tried to breath some new life into the genre. I simply adore the Myst series. But it was unfortunately short lived and Adventure games are basically dead these days.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #65
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    You are comparing it to the worst possible RPG-type games. Compare it against Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, Planescape Torment, etc.
    There are, unfortunately, two RPG-types games today. One like FF and one like Neverwinter.
    I don't know if they should be called the same, but I really don't feel that Oblivion fits into either.

    It's certainly no FF game--it's not linear. But it's no neverwinter nights either because of lacking dialogue options. And there is really no variety in the game--it's all the same, do this, do that, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  6. #66
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    I'd definitly call Oblivion an RPG. Its way more open ended compared to most other RPGs. Theres no real strategy involved though, so its more of an action RPG mixing some FPS elements.

    Japanese RPGs usually tend to be very linear, at least until about half way through the game. I find this often makes replaying them very boring when it take 10+ hours just to get to a point in the game that you can do something other than what you did last time you played.

    Edit: Morrowind had way more dialouge options then NN
    Last edited by mike_g; 04-02-2008 at 09:14 AM.

  7. #67
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You are comparing it to the worst possible RPG-type games. Compare it against Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, Planescape Torment, etc.
    There are, unfortunately, two RPG-types games today. One like FF and one like Neverwinter.
    I don't know if they should be called the same, but I really don't feel that Oblivion fits into either.
    It's complete comparable to all of the above by what I said in my final paragraph. RPGs are and always have been about character development... all the way back to Pen & Paper D&D. ...and your personal opinion about on variety of RPG doesn't defeat the fact that it remains in the definition. The Elder Scrolls games were in no way linear enough to be considered an adventurer game.
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  8. #68
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Well anyway, that's why I don't see Oblivion as an RPG.
    The limited choices in Oblivion doesn't make it ideal for character development.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #69
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Well anyway, that's why I don't see Oblivion as an RPG.
    The limited choices in Oblivion doesn't make it ideal for character development.
    I don't know... you just continue to speak in generics about the "limited choices." With the exception of Knights of the Old Republic, I've played (and beaten several times) all of the above and found Oblivion no less limited than any of them. Regardless, your opinion of what makes a game an RPG is your right, so I won't try to squash it anymore. Also, to Indigo, who appears to be raging that his thread has gone off topic... I'm quite sure anyone who had interest in answering the original question already has, so I don't quite see any harm with our more recent discussion in the thread.
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 04-02-2008 at 09:19 AM.
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  10. #70
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    The limited choices in Oblivion doesn't make it ideal for character development.
    Hmm... Eye of the Beholder, for instance, was far more limiting. And yet we wouldn't dare not call it RPG. Sly touched the wound. It's about character development, regardless of how limiting it may be. In that context RPGs are today very spread out across many other genres. That's why it's so difficult to look at FF and see in there an RPG for the RPG die-hards, but it's even harder to try and say what it is then, if not an RPG.

    Just look at Oblivion as the new RPGs type. This genre has evolved tremendously. More than any other type of game. Essentially an FPS is today what it was when Wolfenstein 3D first hit the streets and caught the world unprepared. Racing and Simulation games are the same. They only have better technology and better physics. But RPGs? wow... talk about evolution.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #71
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    What I don't understand is the lack of dialogue options. It's pretty standard in any type of game like Oblivion.
    Heck, I'm told even Morrowind has more options.

    As for sly...
    Have you tried games such as Planescape? Neverwinter Nights?
    They're full of dialogue options. Especially Planescape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  12. #72
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    What I don't understand is the lack of dialogue options. It's pretty standard in any type of game like Oblivion.
    So and so. Dialog options in fact were always my main beef in RPGs. You see, I find them to be very restrictive. Two examples:

    - Haven't you ever felt before, while playing an RPG, that you would like to say something else than what is available to you?

    - Haven't you felt before, while playing an RPG, that you want to use some dialog option but are unsure as to how you will be "saying it" and as such you have no idea of what the NPC reaction will be?

    I felt this through too many games already. It was always my view dialog options were very limiting and always wished one day more evolved natural language processors are applied to games so that an RPG experience becomes forever again the exact same, or close enough, experience we had when we used to play our Pen & Paper RPGs.

    As such, I don't suffer from lack of dialogs in RPGs anymore. What I do suffer is from too much carpal tunnel from todays RPGs and information flooding. I moan for a more serene, quiet and controllable RPG experience like I had from these games in the past.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 04-02-2008 at 09:45 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #73
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I always felt sometimes there aren't some dialogues that I want. I also try to think myself into a situation, carefully considering each option in the dialogue to conform the situation and the individuality of the NPC to whom the character is talking so that I can select the best choice of course, within my own character's parameterized limits, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #74
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    I'm not going to deny that Oblivion has less dialogue options than Neverwinter Nights or Planescape Torment (which I've already said I have played and beaten all of the above), but dialogue options don't make a game an RPG. Half of what would be considered RPGs offer no dialogue options what-so-ever. ...and many games that were certainly not RPGs offered wonderful dialogue options. (Anyone ever play Spaceship Warlock?)

    Now, what Mario said kind of explains the blurriness of the situation. It's the simple fact that RPGs have drawn such an influence in games, that many games that are certainly not RPGs have inherited some RPG elements. It's like music... the integration of rock, metal, rap, county, classical, have created so many new genres and sub-genres. We might as well call Oblvion "Neo-RPGventurer Fusion". Even sports games inherit some RPG elements into their franchise modes. However, we have to consider the basic elements of an RPG and ask ourselves whether a game has all of those elements. To me (and likely all credible game sources), Oblivion meets the criteria of an RPG.

    Now, I've been begging for a completely open-ended game as far as dialogue goes, but even the best of the best don't even come close. There will always be restrictions until the games start implementing some sort of neural network that allows them to parse our sentences and respond accordingly (and eventually take over the world with the info we feed them)... and that's without 90&#37; of the responses being "I'm sorry, I don't understand."
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 04-02-2008 at 10:24 AM.
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  15. #75
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    If youa re waitign on neural networks to be the AI breakthrough, don't hold your breath. I work with them every day and they arent close.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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