New levels of retardedness

This is a discussion on New levels of retardedness within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Neo1 No, a console will always be cheaper than a PC. You misread what i said. I ...

  1. #46
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    No, a console will always be cheaper than a PC.
    You misread what i said. I said total cost of ownership, not sticker price. TCO is how much you spend per year keeping it updated versus how much you spend each year buying the newest consoles.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    You misread what i said. I said total cost of ownership, not sticker price. TCO is how much you spend per year keeping it updated versus how much you spend each year buying the newest consoles.
    There is not a new console generation each year, more like every 3rd year. So the total cost will still be higher for a computer, atleast if you want a machine that can play all new games in Full HD..
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

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    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    I can play any computer game (that isnt broken), and I only spend ~$200 a year, and since I also use my computer for work, I only count half that. I can play the games I bought 20 years ago without having to have an emulator. Try that with a console. Last console I owned was the Super Nintendo, IMO they havent improved much since. Why should I spend $200 on a console when i can spend that much on my computer, and since I have to have a computer anyway, not buying a console just means I have a better computer. And I dont have to buy a new computer every year either, so your 3 year plan doesnt mean much.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #49
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Keep dreaming, PC's will always outperform consoles in both total cost of ownership and performance.
    This is just not true. It will always cost more for a PC games for worse experience because you need up-to-date hardware. Yes, PCs will probably always outperform consoles if you nVidia 9800GTX x 3 or the like. But that's ridiculously expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Go try to upgrade your PS1 to run newer games, not goin to happen at any price.
    So what? PS1 is outdated at this point, and the PS2 is dirt cheap, and the Wii is $250, if you can find it, of course, and there's still one further argument that I'll bring up below.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Most games don't require you to have the latest and greatest hardware unless you want to run every setting at its maximum.
    You still get choppy framerates, however. Unless, of course, you do have very top notch hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Computer graphics blow away anything you can get on a console regardless of any argument to the contrary, its just facts.
    This is just not true. For newer games, yes, the graphics does evolve, and yes they can beat the console, but no, this is not always the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Consoles have a low res monitor, TV is approx 720 x 480 IIRC (its actually some oddball number near that), which is why they can keep the frame rate up, not because they are superior.
    For NTSC, yes. But not for PAL. It has higher, around 720 x 540 I think.
    But regardless, it is irrelevant. No one claimed consoles are superior. They are just platforms where games are targeted and where the developers can tune the performance so they know that everyone get the same performance, which is unlike PCs, because the hardware can differ.
    And don't forget HDTV which can run up to 1920 x 1080. That's pushing the limit of what the PC can do.
    And the last thing that I will argue about is that graphics is irrelevant. All that matters is that the game is fun. Mario Galaxy isn't as detailed and graphically intensive as Xbox 360/PS3 games, nor was Metroid Prime 3, nor is Smash Brothers Brawl, but hey, they're fun, and we get to play them as 30/60 FPS, so who cares about the graphics?

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    PC gamers don't want to run things that low, most modern PC graphics cards wont even support anything below 1024x768.
    Again, a pretty poor claim since it's just not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
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    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    This is just not true. It will always cost more for a PC games for worse experience because you need up-to-date hardware. Yes, PCs will probably always outperform consoles if you nVidia 9800GTX x 3 or the like. But that's ridiculously expensive.
    Do you think that consoles are magical machines with magical powers? They aren't. They also consist of processors, video cards, memory, just like PCs. The difference between consoles and PCs are that you can't choose the pieces you put into your console. So the problem is that PC games get more and more complex by time, which console ones cannot do.

    The problem would be solved if PC game developers wouldn't use all the power that the newest hardware can supply.

    Anyway, why do you always need the newest games on PC? There are thousands of games you CAN play normally, and a few which you CAN'T, and then you complain that games won't run? Why does that frustrate people that there are FEW games you cannot play since they're too powerful? If there wouldn't be such games, everyone would be happy, so how does the existence of such games frustrate people? Greediness, I suppose.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  6. #51
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    Do you think that consoles are magical machines with magical powers? They aren't. They also consist of processors, video cards, memory, just like PCs. The difference between consoles and PCs are that you can't choose the pieces you put into your console. So the problem is that PC games get more and more complex by time, which console ones cannot do.
    So? So? So? So? So? What's the point of better hardware when the games already run smoothly? No "moving platform," everything static. If it means graphically more complex, then that means better hardware. If it does not, then the consoles can get those games too
    I dunno, but this is why I like consoles. Pay once, enjoy games always.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    The problem would be solved if PC game developers wouldn't use all the power that the newest hardware can supply.
    That is something I would dearly love to see, but unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case games are more towards to

    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    Anyway, why do you always need the newest games on PC? There are thousands of games you CAN play normally, and a few which you CAN'T, and then you complain that games won't run? Why does that frustrate people that there are FEW games you cannot play since they're too powerful? If there wouldn't be such games, everyone would be happy, so how does the existence of such games frustrate people? Greediness, I suppose.
    Well, this has always been how I've seen it. Wait 2 years and then you have to upgrade or games will crawl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    I can play any computer game (that isnt broken), and I only spend ~$200 a year
    Well, a console owner would spend around 250-300$ every third year...


    and since I also use my computer for work, I only count half that.
    This is a good point, computers will do alot of stuff that consoles won't. But then again, this is the entire idea behind them. For games, nothing beats a console, it's cheaper, it's easier, and it just works, every time. You never have to worry about getting the newest drivers or whether or not your Video Card has SM 3.0. It just...Works..

    I can play the games I bought 20 years ago without having to have an emulator. Try that with a console.
    I can play Gears Of War in 1920x1080 with smooth framerates, you try that on a 300$ computer, good luck...

    Why should I spend $200 on a console when i can spend that much on my computer
    A console is a one time investment, it will play all games until the next generation is released, and you don't have to worry about what hardware is inside it.

    And I dont have to buy a new computer every year either, so your 3 year plan doesnt mean much.
    No, but you will have to upgrade it pretty often to make sure it can run new games in high res, console owners never have to worry about that...
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  8. #53
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    ...And for working with computers, you usually do not have to upgrade it to run software unless it's really old. But games are another story. But with consoles, no upgrading until the next console. And if you want those games, that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

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    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    This is a good point, computers will do alot of stuff that consoles won't. But then again, this is the entire idea behind them. For games, nothing beats a console, it's cheaper, it's easier, and it just works, every time. You never have to worry about getting the newest drivers or whether or not your Video Card has SM 3.0. It just...Works..
    PC is a must-have. But if you already have a PC, why the heck would you need a console? PC does everything a console does, a console doesn't do almost anything that a PC does.

    About the drivers and hardware. Yeah, consoles will always have the same old lousy drivers and the same old crappy hardware.

    Btw, many games I play are either freeware or open-source. Beat that.
    Last edited by maxorator; 03-19-2008 at 06:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    PC is a must-have. But if you already have a PC, why the heck would you need a console? PC does everything a console does, a console doesn't do almost anything that a PC does.
    A PC does NOT do everything a console does, not unless you've spent more than a 1000$ on it!

    About the drivers and hardware. Yeah, consoles will always have the same old lousy drivers and the same old crappy hardware.
    And this doesn't matter the least bit, because games will always work on a console unless something is damaged, no matter how bad the hardware and the drivers are, it just works..

    Which can't always be said for a PC, despite it's shiny drivers and superior hardware.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  11. #56
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    I am in agreement with both camps, I was raised a console gamer, but I have turned PC gamer over the years.

    As far as expenses go, I would say my computer costs more than consoles would cost me. I mean, I just bought a new motherboard that has enough expansion for me for about 2 years, it was 230 USD, my total computer cost me in the range of 1500 not counting replacement parts over time, that is just the estimated cost for everything in my computer when at the price I bought each component. This is soon to raise when I purchase a new case, another hard drive, and the LCD screens I want.

    That also does not include cost of games, which I play a couple MMO pay to play style, a couple free online pay once games, and a couple freeware games. I also use my computer as a PS1 and PS2 emulator, I own both but my PS1 died and my PS2 is rather finicky, so I emulate. Same with GBA, I own one but my buddy busted the screen so I have the roms that correspond with the games I own.

    If possible I would just play the games on the consoles themselves but I choose to spend the money on upgrading my computer and just buying more games for my busted consoles and play them on my computer. I really enjoy gaming on a console because while one can have LAN parties, it just isn't the same as a couple of your friends and you sitting down for a few rounds of what ever the cool new fighter game is, or cuddling up with your semi-gamer girlfriend and playing an RPG (I play and she helps with the puzzles and loves the story lines)

    But for solo play, my computer is where I love to game, along with I have pidgin to keep in contact with all my friends, iTunes for my music needs, all my anime is stored there, and my development tools are here too. So I guess it is a matter of choice, and mood whether I am a console or PC gamer.

    Really, I don't think I agrued too much for either side, just another point of view on the PC VS Console holy war. Enjoy your crusades, I am going to play the games you all are talking about playing!

  12. #57
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    The PC can do gaming, sure, but the consoles do that too, and better, at a lower price tag, which is what the consoles are better for and has been argued for all along.
    The PC is a must if you want to do other things than gaming. The PS3/X360 are pathetic multimedia machines. Lots of bugs, incompatibilities, etc. No such thing for a PC.
    But for games, they flawlessly out of the box. No need to worry about copyright protection, no need to worry for a lot of bugs, no need to worry about choppy framerates and no need to worry about upgrading hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

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    I disagree that the 360/ps3 are "pathetic" multimedia machines. I stream most of my vids from my pc there and it works nearly flawlessly. The only complaints are with windows media 10 and the codecs it supports, but I rarely have a codec compatiability problem that's not quickly solvable. It also has minor overscan which doesn't clip some the edges a bit more than usual.

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    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo0086 View Post
    ...The only complaints are with windows media 10 and the codecs it supports...
    And this is what makes it pathetic. Do a max level H264 encode and you'll see the 360 can't handle it (but the PC can handle it fine). That is what I call pathetic. The one and only true multimedia machine is the PC and nothing else should have such a title unless it can run every audio/video out there.

    With so much technology nowadays, the only thing worth having it terms of multimedia is the PC. It's sad, really...
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    The PC can do gaming, sure, but the consoles do that too, and better, at a lower price tag, which is what the consoles are better for and has been argued for all along.
    The PC is a must if you want to do other things than gaming. The PS3/X360 are pathetic multimedia machines. Lots of bugs, incompatibilities, etc. No such thing for a PC.
    But for games, they flawlessly out of the box. No need to worry about copyright protection, no need to worry for a lot of bugs, no need to worry about choppy framerates and no need to worry about upgrading hardware.
    My point exactly. For games, a console just is so much easier and cheaper than a PC, for anything else, it's way to cumbersome and impractical..
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

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