Anyone purely self-taught?

This is a discussion on Anyone purely self-taught? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I agree HTML shouldn't probably be considered a programming language. It's a container-based markup language. A programming language in the ...

  1. #31
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I agree HTML shouldn't probably be considered a programming language. It's a container-based markup language. A programming language in the traditional sense, would force HTML to be able to alter the behavior of the computer. Such is not the case.

    However HTML is no toy as it was suggested either. Markups have become increasingly more complex over the years. HTML and XHTML have high standards and best practices, they do take years to master and force the "programmer" to think logically and to structure their "code".

    They are probably the closest you can get to a programming language without becoming one
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #32
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwks View Post
    I would call HTML a "formatting language", not a programming language. To me, a programming language has to involve logic and conditions and that sort of thing.
    I agree, you wouldn't call the Microsoft Word format a programming language.

  3. #33
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_g View Post
    It all depends on how you define a programming language. Languages line HTML, CSS, XML, and SQL don't do loops so often are not counted as programming languages. (On some list that I have seen anyway).
    Prolog doesn't have loops either. In fact, Prolog shares a lot of traits with HTML. It simply specifies "what is," not "what should be done." And I doubt you'll find anyone who claims Prolog is not a programming language.

  4. #34
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    IMO, and probably someone whose name means more than mine, to be a programming language it needs -

    1. flow control
    2. I/O

    HTML doesnt have flow control, it definately has output, but im not sure it really has input, other than the fact that it was loaded and I guess constants.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  5. #35
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    HTML has forms.

    Since most webites nowadays tend to use HTML, CSS, Javascript and PHP (Edit: or the ones I make anyway) I generally look at it on the whole and consider it programming.

  6. #36
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    IMO, and probably someone whose name means more than mine, to be a programming language it needs -
    1. flow control
    2. I/O
    With due respect to those people that is crap. A programming language needs to be defined with much more than just that. I'm surprised at how that "urban myth" has survived this long.

    That just removes a bunch of declarative or purely functional programming languages of the list.


    HTML doesnt have flow control, it definately has output, but im not sure it really has input, other than the fact that it was loaded and I guess constants.
    HTML has no output or input. It has no flow of control. Neither does it have constants (as if it mattered). But neither did SQL prior to 99 and it didn't stop anyone from calling it a programming language. You can tell that to "those people " above. And not for one moment think I don't know who wrote it. But as usual, it was misinterpreted.

    The reason behind calling HTML a programming language is mostly a matter of prejudice or praise, in my honest opinion. Nobody can convince me a professional developing a website in pure (X)HTML/CSS can't be called a programmer. But it really matters little to me if he couldn't. I did it for a long time and I was faced with the exact same situation I was faced when using "programming languages"; problem solving.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #37
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    I taught myself VBA, HTML and VBScript using books, C and C++ initially using books and the Internet and later took a two-week long programming class that had to do with C++ and C last summer.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I agree HTML shouldn't probably be considered a programming language. It's a container-based markup language. A programming language in the traditional sense, would force HTML to be able to alter the behavior of the computer. Such is not the case.

    However HTML is no toy as it was suggested either. Markups have become increasingly more complex over the years. HTML and XHTML have high standards and best practices, they do take years to master and force the "programmer" to think logically and to structure their "code".

    They are probably the closest you can get to a programming language without becoming one
    YEAH, i completely agree
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  9. #39
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    It would be rather funny if HTML turned out to be Turing complete. That would convince the naysayers, I suppose, but I couldn't care less either way. I don't think HTML would ever achieve that feat on its' own two legs.

  10. #40
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    IMO, and probably someone whose name means more than mine, to be a programming language it needs -

    1. flow control
    2. I/O
    Your exposure to computer science is woefully incomplete if you believe that "flow control" has anything to do with programming.

    Some of the most powerful languages around -- Scheme, for instance -- don't have loops, they don't have if-else statements, they don't have assignment statements, they don't even have variables, and yet people skilled in these languages will absolutely code circles around you.

  11. #41
    carry on JaWiB's Avatar
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    I'm another mostly "self-taught," though to be fair the boards here taught me a lot of what I know. I started learning during high school, I guess, and now I've taken one programming course at my university that taught me almost nothing, and a few physics courses that used some type of programming. I can tell you that programming is definitely useful if you want to major in physics (or probably any scientific field, for that matter)
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    However HTML is no toy as it was suggested either. Markups have become increasingly more complex over the years. HTML and XHTML have high standards and best practices, they do take years to master and force the "programmer" to think logically and to structure their "code".
    Well, if you're looking into making completely valid XHTML and CSS, then yes, that'll take some time. I was simply saying, learning the concepts of HTML takes no time, someone who has never tried HTML before can have a finished (although simple) webpage in a matter of minutes.
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  13. #43
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    I think the best definition for "programming language" is "a language that can be used to solve computational problems". This includes all the declarative languages like Scheme, Haskell, Prolog, XSLT, etc. and excludes markup languages like HTML.
    An equivalent definition is "a notation for writing programs".

    Good HTML/CSS is quite complex, but that doesn't make it programming.
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  14. #44
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    I think the best definition for "programming language" is "a language that can be used to solve computational problems".
    That may still be rather loose though. For example, we can describe algorithms in English, but generally English is not thought of as a programming language. Perhaps we could include the idea of "intent", but I am not sure if XSLT would qualify in that case, despite being Turing complete.
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  15. #45
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    We can describe the algorithms in English, but there currently is no computer that will successfully execute them, so the problem cannot actually be solved.
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