Question for PC Gamers: How much have you spent on certain games? ...

If I would've wanted to make a rootkit and publish it, I would've just used Hacker Defender, because it's near to perfect. That was for learning purposes.

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

Incorrect. I'm a modder, and I'm not evil by any means. Your assumption that good modders have evil stuff is kind of amusing.

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Well, they might have "evil" stuff and they might not have. But if they do have them and they don't publish them, then there's 2 possible options: 1) it's for learning purposes, 2) they're greedy. I'll pick the first one.

I like anticheating organizations (in fact I need to develop such things in the multiplayer mod too), I just don't like zero tolerance policy.

I would recommend "two tolerance policy" - a warning, then kick and ban. Also bans should last maybe for 2 weeks, depending on the "crime". Who would continue cheating when he knows he's near to a ban? In some games cheating can only used for bad purposes (like killing others), but in games where there are cars people just like to stunt with them.

If you cheat in Joint Ops and are caught it results in a permanent ban. But several people have been banned and go out and buy another copy just to get another CD key and play and cheat again.

What a waste of money. Play fair it's cheaper.

BTW the italicized text about this thread was posted by me, not Salem.

Anytime cheating is used in a normal online game whether it be for experiments or for stunting cars, it's not fair to the other players.

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Originally Posted by Bubba

If you cheat in Joint Ops and are caught it results in a permanent ban. But several people have been banned and go out and buy another copy just to get another CD key and play and cheat again.

What a waste of money. Play fair it's cheaper.

BTW the italicized text about this thread was posted by me, not Salem.

Anytime cheating is used in a normal online game whether it be for experiments or for stunting cars, it's not fair to the other players.

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We're talking about different kind of games. There are no CD-keys in games which I play. There are only IP bans. The only option to get rid of the ban would be to change your ISP.

I remember one server banning something 63.*.*.* (maybe not correct), which banned alot of the players at once, where only one was a cheater.

In FPS games cheating means only one thing - abusing. But FPS isn't the only type of game.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

If I would've wanted to make a rootkit and publish it, I would've just used Hacker Defender, because it's near to perfect. That was for learning purposes.

Well, they might have "evil" stuff and they might not have. But if they do have them and they don't publish them, then there's 2 possible options: 1) it's for learning purposes, 2) they're greedy. I'll pick the first one.

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Just for "learning". LOL. The "learning" excuse is kind of lame.

There are reasons for rootkits, although those reasons are almost never productive. Rootkits themselves are usually used on the wrong side of the fence because they are well suited as weapons, or as shields to protect other weapons.

I would hope that this discussion encourages anybody thinking of doing anything unethical to think again. There are reasons why we have rules, laws, and yes, even a conscience.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

I like anticheating organizations (in fact I need to develop such things in the multiplayer mod too), I just don't like zero tolerance policy.

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Nobody in my circles would trust you, since we're quite paranoid about this kind of thing. ;)

But if you feel like it, let me know if you do decide to do anything related to anticheating.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

I would recommend "two tolerance policy" - a warning, then kick and ban. Also bans should last maybe for 2 weeks, depending on the "crime". Who would continue cheating when he knows he's near to a ban? In some games cheating can only used for bad purposes (like killing others), but in games where there are cars people just like to stunt with them.

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Ah, you've discovered the reason for the zero tolerance policy. It's freaks all the dumb idiots that would try to cheat but are scared of getting banned from many servers and shunned by their community. That's the whole point. It's the same reason why I support capital punishment for crimes like murder. Besides actually serving justice, a punishment needs to act as a deterrent to other would-be criminals.

But to answer your question, we have people in our community that have cheated and been caught at least 10 separate times with different CD-Keys, if I remember correctly. A two or three strike policy wouldn't phase these people anymore than what we're doing because they're hardcore addicted to cheating. They just can't stand playing legit no matter what.

I recently been playing Half-Life 2 since I now have a good video card and it looks awesome. It would have been great if it had all the effects that Lost Coast does. Speaking of lost coast, budding game devs should check it out, it has "commentary" in the form of little speech bubbles around the map and when you use them the commentator talks about that portion of the game, sometimes they show the scene rendered different ways and sometime disconnects the player from the action and moves the camera around. It's really awesome and if you have a good video card you can see all the great effects in the game.

This topic is getting rather roudy :)

That "commentary" has been done before, in Brothers in Arms and other games...

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

There are reasons for rootkits, although those reasons are almost never productive. Rootkits themselves are usually used on the wrong side of the fence because they are well suited as weapons, or as shields to protect other weapons.

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My reason was to discover NT kernel this way. You want to know how "the story ended"? Well, I got enough clear overview of the NT kernel without making any program.

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

Nobody in my circles would trust you, since we're quite paranoid about this kind of thing.

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But of course. I can say the same thing about you.

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

But to answer your question, we have people in our community that have cheated and been caught at least 10 separate times with different CD-Keys, if I remember correctly. A two or three strike policy wouldn't phase these people anymore than what we're doing because they're hardcore addicted to cheating. They just can't stand playing legit no matter what.

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That's one type of people. But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do. There may be more of those idiots you mentioned but these ones exist too. I'm from a little country, but I don't think the country should be wiped off the world because it's little and not very important.

The "two" tolerance policy is a test which shows which type of cheater you are dealing with. When it's just a guy who wanted to test the cheat, he would stop cheating when told so and answer something like "OK, sorry". But if you are dealing with an idiot or an abuser, then he: a) may try to cheat secretly and a little (I hope admins have a spectator mode to check if someone is doing it), b) he continues.

Continue with private messages if you have anything to say. :)

ON TOPIC:
Most games get annoying to me in a week or so. There are few games which don't get boring. Rally games I like: Trackmania Nations. Strategy: OpenTTD. FPS/similar: GTA Vice City.

Sorry for messing up the thread with such silly discussions. :(

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Originally Posted by zacs7

ulillillia pfft you go on about licencing and how your not allowed to decompile games, yet you cheat yourself!

Using modding you can also cheat in CloseCombat :), change your weapon stats and they work online/LAN :D

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These are console games I'm referring to like Sonic 3 & Knuckles (using debug mode for example). As far as I know, console games, short of using multiple controllers, aren't much multiplayer. I've never played an online game outside 4 games of basic chess (of which I lost all 4 games because I'm bad at it) and 2 games of checkers (I won one, lost the other). I play single-player more than 99.999% of the time and console games.

For Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I've finished the game without any cheats and found the game practically unchallenging. Needing more challenge, I came up with my own self-made challenges, but even then they started running out. I looked up various cheat codes to see if I can enhance the game and found level select and debug. Once I got debug, I've been at the game for much longer and even after 1500 hours of total game play, the second most of all, I'm still at the game always using debug, but rarely doing much in the way of playing through the levels. I now very rarely see bosses because I'm messing around attempting to accomplish my self-made challenges.

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But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do.

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See, that's why I'm interested in servers with a total sub-zero tolerance for cheaters. I'm playing a game with 64 other people, if everyone would "test" something only once every two months, I'd be playing with a cheater every day. In private, on your very own server, you can test and experiement as long as you like. If you come to a server I visit, I seriously hope we have a trigger happy server patrol who's banning peoples asses faster than anyone could say hack.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

My reason was to discover NT kernel this way. You want to know how "the story ended"? Well, I got enough clear overview of the NT kernel without making any program.

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LOL. Must have been some high view.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

But of course. I can say the same thing about you.

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Yeah I suppose you could, but your "uber 1337 h4x0r circles" don't mean crap to me, and I don't feel the need to want to work with groups like that. ;)

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Originally Posted by maxorator

That's one type of people. But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do. There may be more of those idiots you mentioned but these ones exist too. I'm from a little country, but I don't think the country should be wiped off the world because it's little and not very important.

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I'm not sure how we got into the subject of whether or not your country should be wiped out, and I think it's a stupid analogy that has no bearing on the subject at hand.

Our community has the express notice plastered all over the place that testing cheats is not allowed. We're a small enough group that generally everyone knows what happens if you get caught. There is no reason to test cheats. We don't care if you're curious. If you want to cheat, use the singleplayer console commands that many game companies provide in their games for you to test stuff. Want to learn? Get into modding.

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Originally Posted by maxorator

The "two" tolerance policy is a test which shows which type of cheater you are dealing with. When it's just a guy who wanted to test the cheat, he would stop cheating when told so and answer something like "OK, sorry". But if you are dealing with an idiot or an abuser, then he: a) may try to cheat secretly and a little (I hope admins have a spectator mode to check if someone is doing it), b) he continues.

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LOL. What cheater says "OK. sorry" and never hacks again? You've either been on the wrong side of this battle, or you just have not had experiences with anticheating. I have in my experience seen the proverb, "Once a cheater always a cheater", or perhaps the Biblical proverb of, "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." fulfilled more times than you would like to think. ;)

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Originally Posted by maxorator

Continue with private messages if you have anything to say. :)

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BTW, I posted this topic in a small little set of forums of mine, and showed some people on IRC. Out of the very few that have commented, no one has shared your view. One person even referred to you as "the cheater maxorator". ;)

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BTW, I posted this topic in a small little set of forums of mine, and showed some people on IRC. Out of the very few that have commented, no one has shared your view. One person even referred to you as "the cheater maxorator".

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*pushes up glasses*
*snort*
The guys on IRC are gonna eat this stuff up hehehehehe

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Originally Posted by Govtcheez

*pushes up glasses*
*snort*
The guys on IRC are gonna eat this stuff up hehehehehe

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lol.

;)

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

LOL. What cheater says "OK. sorry" and never hacks again? You've either been on the wrong side of this battle, or you just have not had experiences with anticheating.

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Probably I've been surrounded with too good people.

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

Yeah I suppose you could, but your "uber 1337 h4x0r circles" don't mean crap to me, and I don't feel the need to want to work with groups like that.

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I could just give names to your "circles" too, but my intent is not to offend you.

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Originally Posted by MacGyver

I have in my experience seen the proverb, "Once a cheater always a cheater", or perhaps the Biblical proverb of, "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." fulfilled more times than you would like to think.

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Hmm, you would slaughter all prisoners? I can freely say this point of view is wrong. I've heard this sentence ("Once a cheater always a cheater") before. Doesn't this sentence seem funny to you? I mean there's 0% of truth.

If I don't share your point of view it doesn't mean I'm a "uber 1337 h4x0r" and it doesn't mean I like cheating. But I've tested some stuff on servers (because single player mode is totally different and multiplayer doesn't support actors). I don't think I would cheat publicly in a game where I have other options. Many of that stuff I found and tested will reach the multiplayer mod as server configuration.

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Originally Posted by nvoigt

See, that's why I'm interested in servers with a total sub-zero tolerance for cheaters. I'm playing a game with 64 other people, if everyone would "test" something only once every two months, I'd be playing with a cheater every day. In private, on your very own server, you can test and experiement as long as you like. If you come to a server I visit, I seriously hope we have a trigger happy server patrol who's banning peoples asses faster than anyone could say hack.

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I mean if testers are caught they should be given one chance to stop it, not just an instant ban. But if they don't listen the first warning, then ban is fair enough.

Maybe I didn't phrase my ideas well enough before, but as MacGyver says: "I have to live with the mistake". Most of the disagreements and arguings come from misunderstanding.

Can this abortion of a thread be closed?

I think so.