Thread: C++/CLI arrogance

Originally Posted by Mario F.

I don't see hatred being the exchange currency on the thread, Fill. Some passionate arguments? Probably, yes. But that is healthy. I would hate to think we all behaved like perfect gentleman.

it's the combination of here and in other threads. cboard in general seems very hostile to C++/CLI. Basically, people seem willing to accept C# for what it is, but can't deal with C++/CLI which accomplishes much of the same goal. I personally would prefer to do my windows coding in C++ in the future. So I am thrilled that there is this alternative to C#. That's the perspective I'm coming from. I don't wish for C++ to fade simply because of our stubborness

The 'unsafe' keyword is emotionally charged.
C++/CLI looks like MS's push to move C++ programmers
C++/CLI is slow and bloated
MS deprecated the standard library while providing C++/CLI
MS might replace the WinAPI with a .Net interface

Yes, these are the points. But you cannot ignore them as you did.
Using UNSAFE because its short? Every word has a meaning. Psychology, yes I think MS has a team of psychologists. Even us (ppl in this thread) who know what is unsafe and safe code. That is managed and unmanaged and UNSAFE code can be safer than SAFE code in practice, will have a feeling that "Unmanaged code is unsafe" and "Managed code is safe". So we cannot ignore this naming.
Second is not only a tie.
Third is the most important.
Forth today with a #define what about tomorrow? MS has a plan, and we guess what it is.
And about the fifth one, as I understood from Microsoft, there is something named .Net3 that is Vista API. It is combination of .net2 and some new features. I didn't find anything else.
I should clear that I don't hate MS but its strategy. I don't hate .net, it is idealand enjoying for usual Windows form programming.

somebody's going to have to prove this "its slow" thing. As I understand it, the MSIL is compiled down to machine code at first run. Which should be damn near the same runtime speed.

edit:

interesting benchmark tests... msil faster?
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5602&page=3

edit:

another
http://www.devhood.com/tutorials/tut...utorial_id=203

why C++ is considered "unsafe" when compared to C++/CLI is because it's easier for a hacker to have his way with it. C++/CLI has several features that you can turn on/off that will check for buffer overruns, stack corruption, etc.

.net is not magic, you can include these security enhencements in your unmanaged code maybe better than MS.

>>somebody's going to have to prove this "its slow" thing. As I understand it, the MSIL is compiled down to machine code at first run. Which should be damn near the same runtime speed.
In first site:
Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0 (SP5) IS OLD.
And the optimization options is not mentioned.

Comparison between usage levels of native and .NET code in Vista. Microsoft still prefers to write native code apps.

Is Managed Code Slower Than Unmanaged Code? Not really.

Is .NET A Wrapper Around Win32? Practically, yes.

And then we have A Critical View of C++/CLI

Also the speed test was on an algorithm base. That was a smart move. But doesn't really answer the speed issue, now does it? I mean... A Java coded FFT may not be much slower than a C++ one. What the author smartly enough chose to ignore was things like, for instance:

"However, in the "newer programming languages" generics mean something quite different. C++/CLI Generics are instantiated by the Virtual Execution System (the .Net equivalent of Java’s JVM) at runtime, whereas C++ templates are instantiated at compile-time. Performance-wise, generics are slower than templates by magnitudes."

He chose to ignore the language implementation aspects of which the above is one example.

mario f, the only problem is that half of what that guys is saying is a lie. multiple inheritance not there? lie. It's only not there on a ref or value class. On the traditional classes it's most certainly there. iostream and string not there? lie. I use them in my current .NET project. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. People who insist that its slower and criticize it for things they don't understand are talking about .NET parts! They are not using it correctly.

If you use it in a SH1TTY WAY, you'll get SH1TTY results!!!! That's programming

Though Micorosoft sites only mention .net for Windows API, I found out (Told in MS forum) that Vista core is on base of core code of Windows Server 2003. So we can use its unmanaged functions.