Thread: God

Originally posted by Solidarity
Meanwhile.. Ive never heard a high status scientist claim Evolution to be 'FACT' (in big letters, as you seem to enjoy it)

Most say its Theory, others just plain hypothesis...

That just goes to show how little you understand science. When a scientist calls something a theory, that doesn't mean it's just a hypothesis, just a shot in the dark. A scientific theory is the best way that scientists today can explain what they observe. Airplanes fly based on the theory of lift, but that doesn't mean that flight is a myth. Evolution is the best way that scientists, who shouldn't study this issue with preconcieved bias, can explain the world around them.

It may just be that Im not appealed to the idea of coming from monkeys, that my life has no meaning what so ever and that Im just going to die and completely disappear and thats put a blockade in my mind so that I believe in that there is a God out there willing to let me live past my mortal death and in a sense stay alive...

I hear this a lot. For many people, religion is a mental crutch for them because they can't face reality. So what if we only get 70 or 80 years on this planet? I plan on getting quite a bit done in that span of time. Evolution doesn't imply that your life is meaningless. Quite the opposite, evolution is one of the backbones to the idea of maintaining biodiversity. That idea states that all organisms are important for all life on earth.

Either way,
Id rather die to find out I was wrong and that there is no afterlife (funny way of thinking about since I wouldnt exist) then dying and finding out that Im gonna spend the next amount of thousands of years in torture until I finally get cast into the burning lake and destroyed... :/

Of all of the philosophical arguments that I have seen to advocate the existence of God, this one is by far the most sound. It's called Pascal's Wager, named after the mathmatician and philosopher who concieved of the idea. He stated that if a person can bet a finite amount (a few decades of service to God) to win an infinite amount (eternity in heaven and not in hell) that person should make that bet. This argument is completely logical and has only one flaw: which religion should one place one's bet on? Many religions are similar insofar as they have a jealous god that requires service to Him and only Him. When Pascal formulated his great idea, he and practically all of Europe was Catholic, so I'm guessing that he never dreamt of a world where there would be many religions that (at least in large part in this country) are tolerated and considered equally. If anyone can tell me the perfect religion and give proof as to why it is such, I would be very appreciative.

"Most say its Theory, others just plain hypothesis..."

EVERYTHING in science is a 'theory', that does not detract from the explanations in any way.

Within scientific circles evolution is doubted about as much as the theory of heliocentrism, or the germ theory of disease.

"I had formerly begun to think you were some kind of mean old guy with no reason to be that way, who had probably been fed lies about evolution all his growing up years, and had never even noticed that there was a possibility of thinking for one's self (like alot of people who I have talked to seem to think)"

....... you have the NERVE to say that I don't think for myself!? ME? I question EVERYTHING i ever get taught, i'm the one who goes to speak to the lecturer and points out mistakes, errors, bits that don't seem to make sense etc. etc. I NEVER EVER believe anything without thinking about it. Christ, I derive almost all the equation we are given because i want to see where they came from, no-one else bothers.

You have been HANDED YOUR BELIEFS ON A PLATE, it is hypocrisy in the extreme to tell me i don't think about things.

Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution, there is no question, no debate within the scientific community, none whatsoever, the only debate is in certain particularly ignorant sections of the public.

What exactly have I been lied to about? Do you have any idea what the theory evolution involves? Do you understand it? Do you know what evidence there is that supports it? Or are you totally clueless and arguing from a completely ignorant stand-point?

"The catholic religion is basically all of what you have said against religion in general"

Oh of course: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good", GEEZ i wonder what the catholics would say..... hmmm....... oh wait, I know: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good".

"I agree wholehartedly on pretty much all your statements against religion, as long as they are directed towards catholicism."

They aren't, they are directed towards all religion, i was pointing out problems with the old-testament because Sentaku seems to believe it's 100% truth, which is absurd.

"But you must see; just because some idiots (namely alot of people whomade up the catholic church) twisted things, doesn't mean that the original was twisted"

You have had your education so screwed up by religion that you think the Earth is a fraction of its true age. You did see the demolishing of those ridiculous arguments for a young earth right?

"Without the strict laws the people of israel probably would
have lost their indentity and faith as most of the pagan religions
around them"

Right ok then, so stoning a man to death for picking up sticks HELPED the people did it? Really? BEcause jees, if they hadn't stoned him to death, well the society would clearly have crumbled............ Uh-huh well hell thats plausible...... oh wait no, its not.

And condoning slavery, that helped the slaves did it? Oh wait it doesn't but who the hell cares about them, as long as the israelites are ok......... yea 'benevolent'.

or......... not.

There are so many instances of God being a bastard in the old testament its not even funny, so how on Earth can you claim that he is benevolent?

You can't, not without abandoning all sanity.

I don't believe in god, but i believe in an afterlife.

When you die, you can become any living organism, it's up to you to decide.

It's much more positive to think about death in that way.

>You do know that for bad or good the catholic church is the first christian church right?

Im fairly certain thats incorrect. The Catholic Church came about as a melding of old Pagan traditions with Christian beliefs.

>Read the section on how aaron's sons died ...
>The passage is not talking about jewish slaves ...

you failed to address how one can consider god benevolent based on how he is portrayed in the bible

It really amazes me that almost everybody fears death. Socrates pointed out correctly that such fears are irrational, as they are completely unfounded and baseless. No one here has ever died, nor has anyone here talked to someone who died and said it was unpleasant. For all any of us know, dying is a nice experience. Fearing death is pointless. You cannot stop it; you can only enjoy your life while you're here. Why waste what little time you have worrying about something you know nothing about?

"unfortunately Jesus resurrection differs from both Jewish and Greek beliefs of the period dramatically"

And........

at this time period it was not comman for people to just change there beliefs at random when ever they felt like it.

"During this age there were a few dozen people calling them selves a Messiah as we have had over the last 2000 years"

Perhaps Yeshu was a conjurer.

and he put a spell on 1,000s of people after he died that made them think he had risen and was the Messiah. Anyways since you brought it up:

An early mention of the miracles of Christ comes from Julian the Apostate (Roman Emperor from 361-363 A.D.) who was an enemy of Christianity, he wrote:

"Jesus . . . has now been honored for about
three hundred years; having done nothing throughout his lifetime that was worthy of fame, unless anyone thinks it a very great work to heal the lame and the blind and to cast out demons in the towns of Bethsaida and Bethany."

Thallus' Eclipse - 52 C.E.
A "passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse."
- Harry V. Martin. "Proving the Historic Jesus"

According to McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, "Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian mentioned Christ in 52 C.E. However his works are no longer extant, so we have only citations of it by others...Julius Africanus, a Christian writing about 221, says, talking about the darkness that fell when Christ was crucified, 'Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun -- unreasonably, as it seems to me.' (It is unreasonable because the crucifixion was at Passover, which is based on the lunar calendar and requires a full moon. When there's a full moon, the moon is at the opposite side of the earth from where it has to be for an eclipse.)".
"Phelgon, another first-century historian, is also quoted by Africanus as saying 'during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon'. Phelgon's comment (presumably the same one) is also referred to by Philopon."
- James Kiefer

"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover."
- Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a. Yeb. IV 3; 49a:

(Note that "hanged" here means "hanged on a cross " - crucified.)

This account "agrees with the whole tendency of ancient Jewish sources, which do not deny the existence and execution of Jesus. Indeed, not even the miracles of Jesus are denied, but are rather interpreted as acts of sorcery. The reference to the herald seeking out defense witnesses for forty days may be an apologetic thrust against the canonical Gospels' depiction of arrest, trial, and execution, all in one twenty-four-hour period."
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

Now give me historical proof of someone claiming that Jesus did not preform miracles, and that the darkness did not accor.
Note: the only refute I've seen for the Babyoninan talamad refrnce is that they are refering to another jesus. Simply because science can't prove miricles is not proof that they never happend.

Ok let me get this straight because one whacked out kid liked natural selection that makes it....... false? bad? what?

Man that is your weakest argument yet!

Natural selection is a process; a physical process, its not a belief system.
....
What on Earth are you talking about? Religion has caused immense social damage millions and millions of people have lost there lives over the history of humanity because of it. Religion is also unnesesary, mankind could exist without it.

The argument that evolution is socially damaging is truely absurd, what basis do you have for claiming that the shootings would not have occured if the kid had not known about natural selection? Got any data showing an increase in crime rates after hte introduction of evolutionary theory into schooling? No, what a suprise.

Furthermore what about of the leaps in biology and medicine brought about by the understanding of evolutionary principles?

Once again your arguments are a joke.

1 kid in how long has Natural Selection been taughted in schools compared to how long Christinity existed before it was used in horrible reasons? That kid will be the first in how many? That kid destoyed your beliefs that with out religon the world would be a better place without religon, you don't seem to get that fact that religon is the scape goat, and removing religon would just lead to another scape goat.

Furthermore, what about the leap in the treatments of others from Roman Socaity, and Jewish culture. The amount of charity that christinity is a part of.

How is it possible that God can be benevolent and have a man stoned to death for picking up sticks?

How can a kind God say that beating your slave is ok aslong as he doesn't die straight away?

What kind of a God destroys all life on Earth bar a family and a few animals?

Does that sound benevolent to you?

So Cylde your going to nit pick at the fly well a camel runs over you.

Also why do you think it is right to make the only person that is good have to live with people who do nothing but wrong.

-I have to go bye