Thread: Religious Bull****

having not read any post in this thread but the last... i've come to [unfounded-ly] conclude that this, in grand irony... has become one of those debates it was sworn to end...

[maybe someone already said this...]

[std disclaimers...]

women's rights!

No, I don't want to go to war for no reason. That's what I see religious wars being about. I have the 30 volume Hebrew/English Talmud, at least 30 volumes of the Christian Protestant Martin Luthers commentaries, 28 or so volumes of the 'interpretation' series on the Jewish/Christian bible, the Koran, about 4-5 versions of the Christain Bible, and God knows what else, actually a few more commentaries. These are books that contain wisdom literature. I infact intend to use some of these books as a means to research for the novel that I'm writing. I very much enjoy wisdom literature and in so much I respect all religions.

Yes I have several series on the Crusades, etc. I have not read them though! I have way too many books. Yet I know that these battles were about land and religion. If anything I look at books like that, I look at my nice home, and I say I never want to go to war. I happen to want to live. Life is good.

>
Yes I have several series on the Crusades, etc. I have not read them though! I have way too many books. Yet I know that these battles were about land and religion.
<

Religion was only a means and an excuse in the crusades.


to other points.

the Christians,Musilms, and Jews live in peace in Isreal, I don't see why every one blames everything on the religion when in truth it was only used as a tool for men's ambition, the True believers of these religions do none of these things.

Christianity is an extension of Judaism
Islam is a modification of Judaism


Basically, the religions say dont be greedy, dont complain too much, dont cause unnecessary wars, and to house thy enemy.

These religions also call for judgement and forgiveness.

I believe religion has brought people closer together.


any Christian that would kill for money and money entirely is not Christian.

Chrisitanity nor Judaism says to kill people to make other people join. oh , btw the numbers for the battle in the desert in the bible are not exact, I thought those were the numbers, but they may not be. All I know is that Moses had to keep his hands raised in the air to win the battle.(he was VERY old and it was difficult to keep his hands in the air for a while)

The other religions are not modifications or extensions of Judaism. They are their own religions because they were communicated directly by God to individuals. Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faith are all pure.

<Koshare>
700 muslims did not die in the wtc attacks, a much smaller number is more likely. New york`s bussiness district has ALOT of jews, they have a muesem not blocks away from the attack site.

700 is the number that was announced here, If you have another source please provide it.

<Koshare>
we are a christian nation and we choose to have an obligation to Isreal, because they are Gods "chosen" people

1 - You're free to help anyone as you like, as long as he's not mis-using your help & support
2 - From the religious aspect, don't the jews disbelieve in Jesus? Don't they say that the virgin's not a virgin?
How can you help such people?
3 - Why don't you further explain "chosen"? If you mean they've been blessed by extreme intelligence and skill (in business, for example) then I'd agree. Anything other than that (like promising them land they don't own, from the Euphrates to the Nile) is plain racism to the end of strange promises in the old testament (like the whatever-you-walk-upon-is-your-land thing, or the lend-your-brother-without-interest-but-lend-the-foreigner-with-interest or the take-thy-bondmen-from-the-nations-around and their-children-you-shall-buy). God would never do that and give them such strange commandments/promises in the old testament.

<Koshare>
and they are also the only democracy in the middle east

That's what you think. The American Media emphasises this idea a LOT (you can get Jack Shaheen's book: Arab and Muslim Stereotypes in American Popular Culture, speaking of how your media (newspapers, movies) view arabs & muslims at : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...455488-9244747 .It's only 5-6 $)

The problem with us - arabs - is that we have nearly no presence at all in the world media (outside arab countries).
Every now and then, some arabs would threaten to destroy Israel, give some enthusiastic speeches, urge people to fight, then go shake hands with Israelians and sign peace treaties! we don't do anything at all, we just talk! After all - according to our brilliant enthusiasts - how much does talking cost? It turned out that it costs a lot, since the Israelians and their lovers take such speeches and show it to the western world saying : "Look at the barbarian arabs, they want to kill us, they want to destroy us, we're the only oasis in the arabian deserts, bla bla bla". While at the same time, they're killing civilians, bulldozing buildings, destroying anything & everything silently!

You know, if those enthusiasts did 1/4 of what they say they'd do, they would have destroyed 3/4 of this world!
In short, don't believe anything you see. If we were that vulgar & that rough, we would have destroyed Israel a long time ago.
Actually, we're either too too kind (to a stupid extent) or most of us are just cowards (due to weak faith -this is more likely)

what about the 6 day war, wouldnt want to get that little skirmish in the records now would we coder?

What about it? Sinai was invaded & conquered by Israel in this war which was waged - according to Moshe Dayan - to fulfill the promise of the Torah (From the Euphrates to the Nile).

Yes, egypt attacked isreal, isreal attacks back, egypt attacks back, everyone blames isreal Funny isnt it?

Historically incorrect. Israel started everything.
Israel, England & France attacked egypt after the nationalization of the Suez canal (making it egyptian property) in 1957. Now what does Israel have to do with this? It's none of its business, simply.
1973 (Yum-Kippur war) was a reply from egypt to 1967 war by Israel.

first you say that the hijackers were not muslims, then you say they werent very good muslims

Where did I say that? Please give quotations so that I'd know what you're exactly talking about.
I think I used if.
I assume you're talking about what I said about Bin Laden, I was speaking of him as a terrorist - generally. I didn't say he did it.

However, I've obviously been wrong. Since Bin Laden showed up and said America's not going to live in peace until Palestine does, to the end of such nonesense.
Now I hope he gets caught and that taliban falls as soon as possible, in order to minimize the losses of the poor innocent afghans that have nothing to do with this mess.

Finally, I think America's in trouble. If those stupid people really have the training & tech to plan and execute such massacres, you should take care cause they're going to (try to) do it again.

By the way, Egypt - and some arab countries - suffered from terrorism several years ago. Bin Laden was involved in many massacres aimed at blowing egypt's economy. He's been involved in the attempt to assasinate our President (Mr. Muhammad Hosni Mubarak). When we called for a world-wide conference to define terrorism and counter it, nobody cared. Now, only when America was hit everyone got mad and declared it a war "against terrorism".

(1)Indians - indians died mostly from diseases

I was speaking of the original people that lived in North america before the European immigrants took their place. Are we speaking of the same people?

(2)Japan (Hiroshima & Nagazaki) - military towns, 1 million deaths estimated on both sides otherwise

The whole town is a military town? no civs? What about the radiation and its effect on the next generations?

(4)Iraq (A nation killed for its leader) - a leader that was developing weapons to kill people like me.

How would he do that? Come on, you're overestimating him too much. If he had any will to kill people like you, or any non-arabian people, he'd have attacked Israel not Kuwait (I mean a serious attack with an army and all, not the 29 scud missiles thing). The guy's stupid, completely. How do you kill a nation for one man? If his weapons annoy you, you can attack Iraq one attack and finish the threat instead of killing the people (26,000 Iraqis have been killed in the last July & August, most of them were children)

Also, who are you to condemn a nation? You're not God, who gave you the right to do such a thing? You can wage war, you can fight. But you can't prevent someone from eating.

<Koshare>
dont talk about the fact that america sends more food to 3rd world countrys then the rest of the world combined!

So you kill them with one hand, and give them food with the other?!
That's a good thing america is doing (sending food), but it doesn't justify the killing.

<Koshare>
Do not forget that 2000 years ago isreal was in control by the jews, arabs took it over, so shut the hell up moron!
==================
Isreal has been the home of the jews for 6000 years. It is one of the oldest continually occupied places in the world
==================
considering the fact that isreal was attacked by them or allies of them the day after they were formed no wonder.
==================
oh, I read up some more on world history, Isreal was the first country ever attacked 1 day after it was established, this led to occupation of parts of Isreal

1 - The expression "shut the hell up moron" is not a good one, you shouldn't have used it.
You're a christian, you said so. Whether you like it or not, many people will think of you as an example of christians and christianity. Jesus (PBUH) would have never said what you just said, so follow his example and honor him. Don't give christianity a bad reputation.
If using bad language makes you feel better, write your post with bad language. Get away from your PC until you're cold, get back and filter out the bad language. That'll do until you can control yourself in real-time.

2 - The land was controlled by the arabs, jews took over, arabs reclaimed it again, then jews took it over again.
The whole region was completely arabian long before Israelians. Jerusalem was built by the canaanites, tribes coming from the arabian peninsula, then it became a citadel for the jebusites (also tribes coming from the peninsula) later it was captured by DAVID (PBUH), but it's not an israelian land. The land was populated by the cannanites (grand parents of the palestinians)

Also, there's a big difference between religion & nationality. Being a jew doesn't give someone an Isaelian nationality. Who told you that the jews of Israel (nowadays) are the offspring of the israelians that lived someday?
Jewish immigrants from all parts of the world migrated to Israel, and took the nationality. There are russian jews, american jews, ...etc that migrated to Israel. Those aren't orignally israelians.

So, Israel isn't the original owner of the land. It was just a temporary country, and thus they don't have any right to claim the land.

The arabs lived in Spain (Andalus) ago, does that give them any right to go make a country in spain?
There are millions of muslims in america, does that give them the right to make their own country inside america?

3 - So, When Israel was claimed, it had no right to exist. They just took arabian land and claimed it theirs. It's no wonder that the Arabs attacked. Yet their attack was stupid and weak with feeble leadership, and weak weapons.

now if I remember right(which I do) Hitler tried invading Arab states for oil, britain the country that created Isreal, defended these places. If it werent for britain, your life would consist of concentration camps, and a feeling of inferiority. British people died for arabs... the same people that have no respect

British people didn't die for arabs. This is too clear, you've just said it.
Britain conquered the areas here, they considered us their property. Hitler wanted Britain's property, it was a conflict between Britain and Hitler, we were only a resource. Britain fought hitler for its own sake, if he had controlled the resources you just mentioned he would've become much stronger.

Do you really think Britain would do it for our sake? How romantic!

About the concentration camps, we were under English invasion it wouldn't make a big difference to be invaded by the Nazis instead.

Britain during world war 2, could have easly joined Hitler, ensuring victory, why? Britain is made up of an aryan people

What? You think they refused to join him in order to keep us happy & clappy? It's all a matter of benefits. They wanted control, Hitler wanted control.

This is funny, because we helped liberate afghanistan from russia

Because it was good for you not to give the Soviet Union (your competitor) any victory. And the afghanistan war was the last nail in Soviet Union's coffin.
Do you really think you did it for "God", "good", or for the Afghans' sake?
You did it to retaliate your enemy without losing any american lives.

You trained Osama Bin Laden, you gave him weapons. After he won his battles, he found nothing to do (and that kind of people can't live without fighting and killing people, whether it's right or wrong) so he dedicated himself to take care of America this time.

<gamegod3001>
OK let me get this straight we sell the middle east weapons to Protect themselves and they kill each other instead. But we are at fault

History testifies that many many wars were started by weapon sellers. Many things happen secretly, maybe in the future we'd know which wars were exactly started like that.
You can be a little more cautious, after all how can you sell someone like Saddam weapons?

Remember always, that Islam is built of Judaism, and says that Arabs are the superiors. The torah says that Jews have more responsiblity and hardships to endure.

Where did you get that? Islam is completely completely absolutely different from Judaism (The current Judaism, we believe that it's different than the original Judaism)
Islam never says the Arabs are the superiors.
Islam speaks of muslims, it has nothing to do with arabs. You're not differentiating between nationality & religion. There are muslim, christian, jewish, atheist, agnocitist arabs just like any other people in the world.

Where have you been told such things? Do you have any proof of what you said?
Of the things that can get me mad, is this : People speaking of lies about Islam as if they're plain facts without ANY PROOF.

If you want to talk about the Torah, I can quote you verses that are extremely racist, verses that can never be accepted by any sage human being. If you want them tell me.

I lived on the Navajo Indian reservation for 2 years?
.
.
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but if you have ever seen a car run into a cow you wont need to see anything else in your life to be shocked.

That's not the equivalent of a 3rd world country, that's the lowest level of a 3rd world country, the generalization is incorrect. I'm living in a 3rd world country but things are absolutely different.
That cow scene, you would likely find it in India only (since they believe cows are sacred)

America is not a virgin country.
Isreal is not a virgin country.
Egypt is not a virgin country.

You've spoken of ancient history, you can't discuss the ruler & people that lived thousands of years ago, you can't make them pay for what they've done.
But you can do it to those who live now. America & Israel both are alive now, their crimes are still alive and can be paid for.

Israel killed the egyptian captives of the six day war (1967) by walking tanks over them, shooting them in groups. When we requested compensations from Israel for those captives, their reply was "This case has become obsolete : A lot of time has passed since then". Now I wonder why they still take money from Germany, since it's much more obsolete and the current Germany has nothing to do with Hitler (Germans are NOT Nazis).

1967 Six-Day War, Jerusalem reunited.

In this war, Israel invaded Sinai. why?

1987 Widespread violence (intifada) starts in Israeli-administered areas.

Yeah sure, people defending their own land (palestinians defending canaanites' land, their land) is widespread violence. Blowing their heads off is cooling the situation (Right now as I right this, the news on tv : A palestinian reciting the holy qur'an on the roof of his house after praying El-Fajr (generally 4:00 - 5:00 AM ) was shot and killed by the israelian soldiers for no reason)

Prime Minister Rabin assassinated at peace rally.

Assasinated by an Israelian who didn't want peace.

1996 Fundamentalist Arab terrorism against Israel escalates.
Operation Grapes of Wrath, retaliation for Hizbullah terrorists' attacks on northern Israel.

Northern Israel? Or Southern Lebanon (which was occupied by Israel)?
Hizbullah were defending Lebanon Koshare (which Israel occupied its southern areas), until they got Israel out recently (Well done, I'd say. The only people who were able to liberate their land from Israel did it by fighting (Egypt, Lebanon). This indicates that Israel really doesn't want peace).
And still you call them terrorists, what about Israel? Isn't it a terrorist for invading all the arabs around?
Have you seen the shooting of Muhammad El-Durra (the child that was killed in his father's hands, without even holding a rock in his hand)?

it is bad when a nationality that has around 300 million members doesnt have its own country, and when it wants its own country the size of New Jersey, in a land where the majority of it is already Jewish it is too bad.

1 - Nationality? Judaism is a religion, not a nationality (so the 300 million members aren't members of one nationality.)
There are more than 1,000,000,000 muslims in this world, yet they don't have a country of their own. Does that mean we should invent a nationality and make ourself a country in someone's land?

2 - It wants its own country in a someone else's land? Well even if it were an area of 1x1 metres , they have no right to claim it theirs and the land owners have the right to fight.

3 - The majority is jewish, so? Judaism is a RELIGION. If 20,000,000 muslims gather in Nivada, that won't give them the right to make a country there.

I win, do I get a sticker?

This discussion is not about winning. You won't win and I won't win, Truth might win (I hope it does). 100 years later god-willing, you won't be here & I won't be here, but the truth will be.

Isreal had a terrorist attack yesterday, the day before, etc They have over 100 attacks a year on average. So if they attack a country harboring terrorists i look the other way.

Who started it? Did palestinians claim a country inside Israel, or was it the other way?
The attacks are against a terrorist country.
Everyday 4-8 palestinians get killed, it's the first news I read daily, something like "x palestinians killed in an israelian assault", "israelian tanks attacks x villages and destroys xx houses and kills xx palestinians", ...etc
What about building colonies (the actual name, not "settlements")? Building colonies is completely against the decisions and regulations of the security council (I hope that's the correct name), yet nobody tries to speak to Israel about it.

Actually, America and other countries arnet nearly as precise with keeping civilians alive. Isreal has invaded towns without a single civilian casualty.

This is completely untrue. The only casualties' are civilians!
The news don't reach you, because
(1) Jews control your media
(2) Israelians aren't that good with journalists.

All the people Israel kill are stone-throwers, do you count those as militants? What about blowing buildings and villages with tanks? Killing children and women living in their own land?

The war you talk about excludes the amount of people dying in bombings, just 4 or 5 days ago 20 people where killed by a car bomb, yesterday a sniper opened fire on an Isrealie church.Such a noble enemy the Isrealies fight

The bombers are palestinains that want their land back, their parents, childs, brothers & sisters are constantly being killed by an army of a country that has no right to exist. Do you want him to take hits and stand still? His land had been stolen and his people were killed first, he strikes back. He doesn't have any weapons to attack a military target, he doesn't have any training to attack a military target, some don't have food or water (more than 200 palestinian villages are deprived of water).
A friend was in palestine last year, he couldn't use any cars (Israelians stop them) and he had to walk whenever he wanted to go somewhere. Israelian tanks blowing buildings all day long is an ordinary event, they hear the blowing all the time.

Actually, watching the Israelian soldiers shooting the palestinain rock-throwers can give you an idea about who's right and who's wrong. If Israelians believed they're right, they wouldn't have run like cowards from the faces of the rocks (while armed with machine guns and tanks). If you watch a palestinian throwing rocks bravely against a tank, you'll simply realize he's fighting for a cause - unlike the Israelians.

These 4 religions originated from Zionism.
===================
Christianity is an extension of Judaism
Islam is a modification of Judaism

Now I'm really wondering where you got such false info from. Islam has nothing to do with zionism/judaism.

Jews enslaved for 400 years, the battle in the middle of the desert, were only 100 Jews died, 10,000 arabs

1 - There's no historical proof of such battles (and that's not me saying it, I've read that for many historians/encyclopaedias). Christians believe the bible is true, jews believe the old testament is, muslims believe neither is true.
The bible is full of - as you've said - funny things. Which makes me ask : how you believe it to be holy, and take it as a base for a religion?
2 - Jews vs Arabs : Incorrect, that's a religion against a nationality. You'd better say : Jews vs Atheists/whatever_religion.

I do not fear death in the slightest, unlike most atheists, I never have feared death

Belief in God must bring fear from death. Do you think you're perfect? Do you have a ticket to heaven?
Don't think high of yourself, you might be punished for your sins.
Anyone who says in a proud childish language "I'm not afraid of death" simply doesn't know what lies beyond death.
Yes, maybe you're not afraid of the pain that accompanies death (and even that can be changed, when you face the pain), but death itself as a portal between life and the after-life (for those who believe in God) is fearful.

Also, you can speak in a courageous way now, but when the time for the decision comes you might be suprised by what you'll do (Most of us don't know ourselves, you can lie to yourself just as you can do to anyone else). Don't judge people untill you see them in the moment they're in the position of making a free choice/decision. Fear from death is found in any living creature, but it doesn't completely show its face except when you're endangered, then one of 2 will happen:
(1) You will be really brave and overcome the fear (Being brave means overcoming fear, not "not having fear")
(2) You won't be brave

NOTE : Dying when you're defending your country/people/etc - which makes you a martyr - is a different thing.

Everyone except false profets and murderers go to Heaven, so anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.

Why should I believe you? How can I know that you're not the one lying? Where did you get this rule (the bible?)
Let's evaluate it :
If someone rapes a woman and escapes with it (i.e he's not punished in life, and he leads a happy life with his crime uncovered), do you think god will tap on his back and send him to heaven?
Aren't there any crimes worse than killing?
I can think of extremely violent crimes that keep people alive (cutting all their limbs for example). You think that one who does such things goes to heaven?

Take this crime for example (Sadly, this crime has happened in reality) : A man kidnapped a 15 years old girl, imprisoned her in an abandoned place for 60 days (2 months) and kept raping her whenever he feeled like doing so (for 60 days, for God's sake).
Now, that guy killed no one, will he go to heaven? I think it'd have been merciful from him if he killed her instead of doing that for 60 days.

What you say simply means : "Do whatever you like in this life : Steal, rape, cheat, blackmail, ...etc. But don't kill anyone and don't claim yourself a prophet".
How nice!

Read the bible- the palestinan-Isreal conflict has been going on since the time of David. and Muslims were not around then...

1 - Good, you've said it! Palestinians were there then, and they lived there before the jews (the canaanites)
2 - The bible? It's believed to be a truly holy book by the christians(all the bible) and the jews(old testament).
The bible has importance for christians/jews only. It's not a historical reference.

Basically, the religions say dont be greedy, dont complain too much, dont cause unnecessary wars, and to house thy enemy.
These religions also call for judgement and forgiveness.

I think that's the case with christianity. Islam has an economic, politic & social model (that's - sadly - not being followed by any so-called islamic country in this world currently)

>The whole town is a military town? no civs? What about the radiation and its effect on the next generations? <

The cites would have been leveld anyways. We just did with one bomb instead of many. Therfore risking less of are lives. Also we sent jappen some letters like this:

Dear Japen,

We have a bomb that will destroy an entire city. If you don't give up we will use it.

Love,
America.

To witch they replied:

Dear America,

We give up ooo great america. Not

Japen.

>How would he do that? Come on, you're overestimating him too much. If he had any will to kill people like you, or any non-arabian people, he'd have attacked Israel not Kuwait (I mean a serious attack with an army and all, not the 29 scud missiles thing). The guy's stupid, completely. How do you kill a nation for one man? If his weapons annoy you, you can attack Iraq one attack and finish the threat instead of killing the people (26,000 Iraqis have been killed in the last July & August, most of them were children) <

We atacked Iraq, after sudam hussan atacked Kuwait. Have you ever heard of something called oil for food. It was a nice program that oil would be sold and that monney would be used to buy food. A win win situation. The only catch was there needs to be U. N. inspecters allowed access to the country to make sure the monney is not being used for 'other' perposes. If you new what was going on you would realize that the places we blow up seem to quicly get rebuit. We arn't killing the civilans Sadam is killing his own people.

British people didn't die for arabs. This is too clear, you've just said it.
Britain conquered the areas here, they considered us their property. Hitler wanted Britain's property, it was a conflict between Britain and Hitler, we were only a resource. Britain fought hitler for its own sake, if he had controlled the resources you just mentioned he would've become much stronger.

Do you really think Britain would do it for our sake? How romantic!

About the concentration camps, we were under English invasion it wouldn't make a big difference to be invaded by the Nazis instead. <

Guess what, Britan did die for your sake. As did the french, ammercan, and the rest of the allies. If you were under the control of Germany then guess what, you would have been killed being a muslem look the information up.

Oh yea, america has NO offical relion. We don't care what religon you are. We and the 'civillized world' want peace, to do so requires being in areas around the globe.

I didn't read the last post... I thought this thread was dead. Dammit... I guess not.

Who gives a *&%^?