reality is in material

**Hillbillie** · 05-18-2002

>I'd agree that you cannot have absolute proof, so anything could be possible, but by the same token you cannot prove anything beyond our human senses so the universe is me and it's all I'll ever know (which means relying on lack of disproof to support proof pointless).<

Okay.

>You accet that my opinion is infintely more likely to be true than your own...... yet you stick to your own.<

I never said I think your opinion is infinitely mroe likely to be true, just that I think it is more probable. By how much, means nothing (to me).

>That my friend is irrational.<

I suppose it is.

>speaking of ham, we have a saying in England that you can't educate pork....why do you bother trying Clyde ???? actually i suppose it is amusing.........<

I take offense to that. (Just so you know. I'm sure you don't care, but at least you know.)

[removed previous comment because some people can actually show respect on this thread]

**fyodor** · 05-18-2002

If there are an infite number of possiblible characteristic in the universe the probability of any one taken at random being correct is one over infinity. Since you have no basis, evidence, nor theory supporting your "universe turns to ham" the probability of it being correct is an infinitely small number

It is absurd to make a judgment about physical reality (not dealing with alephs, etc) based on this argument, I think. To my knowledge, probabilities are not defined over the infinite set (see restrictions above), and thus your statement is completely invalid. And disregarding that, if treated in your fashion, every theory/statement/hypothesis has the 'same' probability of being true, considering 10^10^10/infinity is 'equivalent' to 1/infinity ( they are both nonsense, as is pretty much everything 'real' when infinity is treated as a number, instead of a limit)
Just my two cents worth.

**stevey** · 05-18-2002

i'm more than capable of debating things as rationally and as carefully in sheer logic terms like Clyde does, but when there are complete idiots stating crap like this ->

""Why is this so? It's so because neither side out-wieghs the other. When you get down to it, thinking everything turns to ham when you turn away from it is no more absurd than thinking everything doesn't turn into ham when you turn away. Is the idea of "life" logical? No way... ""

and this

""you don't know what is happening behind your back. You have blind faith that everything didn't turn into a ham behind you while you weren't look just to turn back into what was there last time you checked when you turn around.

no one knows what's happening when there's no one there to say what is. ""

and the rest of the baloney.....

i see no point in wasting my fingers typing. if you can't see that you are a complete dicks then its far easier to just be rude. you deserve it. you are being complete jerks and you can't even see it. its unavoidable not to be amused by your idiotic debates about ham !!! any sensible person would be

its completely risible....

**fyodor** · 05-18-2002

Show a little maturity, stevey. Your most recent post appears to be the one that looks like it was written by a "complete dick" and a "complete idiot" and a "complete jerk." I'd have to say it is the most rude post in this thread so far, as a matter of fact.

**stevey** · 05-18-2002

it was meant to be.....i see no other responce to idiocy...

maturity?? whats that got to do with it???

yeah i must be the one who is a complete jerk, how silly of me to not realise the ham thing is perfectly plausible...

if you think its worthwhile trying to be reasonable about lumps of ham materialising behind you then i suppose we live in different worlds

ok i'll just go away and turn unto a piece of ham.....

aren't there ANY sane people on here ???????

**ihsir** · 05-18-2002

>>aren't there ANY sane people on here ???????

Yeah, I'm sane as I dont reply to such threads. Ohh wait a minute i just did.

Nobody's sane here now. but wait, we could search the member name list for sane

LOL

**fyodor** · 05-18-2002

it was meant to be.....i see no other responce to idiocy...

So you act like a jerk in response to what you deem idiocy (regardless of whether it is or not)? Why don't you just stop responding to their arguments? So there are a lot of idiots in the world. Is that news to you?

maturity?? whats that got to do with it???

People normally attribute a certain degree of tolerance to mature adults. An ability to keep one's temper...You sound like an arrogant boy-I should know; I am one sometimes

Maybe you're just in a really bad mood or something. God knows it happens to all of us.

**stevey** · 05-18-2002

i'm in a really good mood actually !!!!!

we do just live in different worlds, i find the ideas presented so completely idiotic i just can't resist laughing at it and being rude...
anyone i know in real life would too.....

the sheer preposterousness, coupled with people having rational debates about lumps of ham 'lookout behind you' ..its so risible.....
oh i just can't believe it...its far better to just leave em to it..i shouldn't bother posting, i won't bother in future.....

that ->
""get a friend to stand where he can see behind you, then when u turn away he can verify that the whole world didn't turn to ham when you turned your back on it. or look in a ****ing mirror, or set up a ****ing camcorder, or just stop being so ****ing stupid....""

was a reasonable point tho'(without the swearing etc of course)

**Hillbillie** · 05-18-2002

>we do just live in different worlds, i find the ideas presented so completely idiotic i just can't resist laughing at it and being rude...<

I really feel sorry for you. I'd hate to be compelled to try to make everyone else around you feel like ****.

>i shouldn't bother posting, i won't bother in future.....<

The best thing I've heard from you during this whole thread...

>that ->
""get a friend to stand where he can see behind you, then when u turn away he can verify that the whole world didn't turn to ham when you turned your back on it. or look in a ****ing mirror, or set up a ****ing camcorder, or just stop being so ****ing stupid....""

was a reasonable point tho'(without the swearing etc of course)<

This debate was over stuff that isn't really logical. That's why everyone started to sound illogical. But you, you're just being illogical. Show a little maturity and stop acting like a 4th grader calling the other kids names...

>So you act like a jerk in response to what you deem idiocy (regardless of whether it is or not)?<

Exactly. It's like stevey has to call other people names and tell them that they are irrational to make himself feel better.

I said it before, I really feel sorry for you, stevey.

**Clyde** · 05-19-2002

"Clyde, the laws of physics exist because people say that the laws of physics exist"

Utterly wrong, straight from the mouth of someone who knows nothing of physics.

"I never said I think your opinion is infinitely mroe likely to be true, just that I think it is more probable. By how much, means nothing (to me). "

It is simply ridiculous to believe in something that has a 0.00000 recurring 1 chance of occuring.

It is not ridiculous to believe in soemthing that has a 0.999999 recurring chance of occuring.

**Clyde** · 05-19-2002

"It is absurd to make a judgment about physical reality (not dealing with alephs, etc) based on this argument, I think"

Then why do you make judgements based on this reasoning every moment of your life?

Why for example are you not cowering for fear that the five foot, six armed dragon, standing to your left, is about to eat you?

"To my knowledge, probabilities are not defined over the infinite set (see restrictions above)"

Your knowledge is wrong, studied calculus?

"Show a little maturity, stevey. Your most recent post appears to be the one that looks like it was written by a "complete dick" and a "complete idiot" and a "complete jerk." "

I'd have to disagree, he is voicing common sense. And he's venting frustration that I feel all too well.

"People normally attribute a certain degree of tolerance to mature adults"

Hah, when someone tells you they believe that elves talk to them, you think their nutters, but when someone tells you they think the world turns to ham you should be tolerant!?

"This debate was over stuff that isn't really logical. That's why everyone started to sound illogical"

I'm being perfectly logical, the very fact that you can admit that your being illogical implies your opinion is invalid.

"aren't there ANY sane people on here ???????"

*Raises hand*

**Kupo** · 05-19-2002

Originally posted by Clyde

Hah, when someone tells you they believe that elves talk to them, you think their nutters, but when someone tells you they think the world turns to ham you should be tolerant!?

People talking to elves tends to be absurd because the theory behind them is that they're people, they exist.

The whole world turning into hams thing could be true, you don't know, do you?

you're trying to pigeon hole something in the wrong hole, in order to win this whole insane argument thing!

**Dalren** · 05-19-2002

Ok time to bring technical philisophic terms into the argument. This thread seems to be arguing between "Primacy of Existance" and "Primacy of Consciousness." The simple version of these two:
Existance: It still exists even though Im not looking at it.
Consciousness: If I dont see it (not conscious of it) it doesnt exist, if my conscious wants it to be a toster it is a toaster.

Now, lets look at "Primacy of Consciousness" a little more. When you break it down it says that, A (any object in the universe) is or does what your Consciousness ordains. It says that A does not have to equal A if consciousness doesnt want it to. The problem with this belief is that it rejects the fundamental axiom of Identity, that A=A.

To back up my claim about the Axiom of Identity here is a small discussion and defense of it. The Axiom of Identity says that whatever object you have be it an apple or a stone, it can not also be a leaf. A is A, you cant have your cake and eat it, too. If you except this than only one side is right.

However if you dont except this, then A no longer has to equal A, and therefore two concepts about one point can both be right. Or contradictions exist in reality and any concept is correct thus, my belief is correct whether you except my argument or not. hehe

[note: most philosophic definitions and examples taken from my fav. philosopher Ayn Rand]

**Clyde** · 05-19-2002

"People talking to elves tends to be absurd because the theory behind them is that they're people, they exist.

The whole world turning into hams thing could be true, you don't know, do you? "

What? WHAT!?

People talking to elves could be true too!, you don't know, do you?

Its EXACTLY the same, both are utterly rediculous, because both are utterly improbable.

**stevey** · 05-19-2002

the guy who thinks the world turns to ham when you're not looking thinks i'm immature and illogical, feels sorry for me??

well i guess i can happily live with that!!

you spout complete idiocy and then feel **** when somebody rational insults you ?? ..you'll have to develope a thicker skin if you go around talking gibberish...

if you want to be rational, why don't you answer this -

""get a friend to stand where he can see behind you, then when u turn away he can verify that the whole world didn't turn to ham when you turned your back on it. or look in a ****ing mirror, or set up a ****ing camcorder, or just stop being so ****ing stupid....""

[i must be bored today]